[Debate] George Monbiot – See No Evil

Yoshie Furuhashi critical.montages at gmail.com
Tue May 22 17:27:08 BST 2012 

Which is in the interest of liberty in the affairs of justice -- the
presumption of innocence or the presumption of guilt?

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 12:20 PM, peter waterman
<peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yoshie:
>
> I have no idea how you manage to turn my thoughts upside down. I would have
> thought that you had no problem with Gadafi-style 'revolutionary justice' as
> long as he was in power and producing (decreasing amounts of)
> anti-imperialist rhetoric.
>
> You only got excited about justice in Libya when Gadafi was overthrown.
>
> I do not dismiss your present attitudes toward and information about the
> post-Gadafi regime. I am deeply troubled by these.
>
> What do you propose we should do about both such matters? I mean, how do you
> propose the Left should take a consistent approach towards the crimes of
> both types of regime?
>
> PeterW
>
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi
> <critical.montages at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You mean you prefer "revolutionary justice," Libyan-rebel style, to
>> the ongoing imperialist show trial that makes you go through tedious
>> motions?
>>
>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 12:04 PM, peter waterman
>> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Nope, Yoshie, I don't think the Manichean Left learned that.
>> >
>> > I recall Raji Palme Dutt (eminence grise of the CPGB at that time)
>> > calling
>> > Stalin's crimes 'spots on the sun'. But others still appeal to Lenin or
>> > Trotsky against Stalin, or to the early period of Soviet power against
>> > the
>> > later years. Even Fabians Sidney and Beatrice Webb, in the 1930s, wrote
>> > a
>> > massive book, 'Soviet Union: A New Civilisation?', later removing the ?.
>> >
>> > Personally, I would have thought the evidence of the crimes of Ratko
>> > Mladic
>> > to have been overwhelmingly demonstrated by his own words and
>> > appearences,
>> > by independent journalists and other media even before Srebernica.
>> > However,
>> > I will be interested to follow the trial.
>> >
>> > You give the strong impression of 1) not believing in his guilt and 2)
>> > not
>> > inclined to anyway accept a guilty finding by a bourgeois or imperialist
>> > court that tries massacres of figures from the East or the South, whilst
>> > not
>> > even considering those from the West.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, for those I have called the Manichean Left,
>> > contradictions
>> > exist within each of these entities. Thus, it was President Carter who
>> > made
>> > 'human rights' a major part of inter-state discourse, policy and action
>> > -
>> > with admitedly contradictory implications - not the Left (unless one is
>> > to
>> > include Amnesty International as part of this).
>> >
>> > As a Leftist of the Manichean Communist tradition, I thus once defended
>> > Soviet nuclear weapons as 'the people's bomb', rather than seeing that
>> > the
>> > Soviet Union was reproducing rather than surpassing the nuclear war
>> > strategy
>> > of the US (which started the nuclear arms race by the mass murder of
>> > Japanese (therefore non-white) civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>> >
>> > E. P. Thompson was a British Communist labour historian who quit the
>> > CPGB
>> > after Khruschev's 'Secret Speech' and the Soviet crushing of the
>> > Hungarian
>> > uprising, 1956-7. He then became a major figure in the peace and
>> > human-rights movements. Although I did not leave the CP until the
>> > following
>> > crisis (Soviet invasion of Communist Czechoslovakia, 1968), I would
>> > consider
>> > him as a significant representative of what I am proposing to call the
>> > 'Emancipatory Left'.
>> >
>> > I am not sure whether you would agree.
>> >
>> > PeterW
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi
>> > <critical.montages at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Maybe the traditional Left learned a lesson from the evil of
>> >> Stalinism: don't accept what the prosecution says just because the
>> >> prosecution is more powerful than the defendant and his or her
>> >> lawyers, especially when the judiciary and media not independent of
>> >> the executive power and when the verdict of "Guilty" is politically
>> >> predetermined.
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 9:22 AM, peter waterman
>> >> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > As a sometime critic of Monbiot, I am with him on this one.
>> >> >
>> >> > The traditional Left has always preferred genocides (or mass murders)
>> >> > to
>> >> > be
>> >> > committed by the traditional Right.
>> >> >
>> >> > I remained shocked but silent and inactive on the Srebenica massacre,
>> >> > as
>> >> > on
>> >> > the decades-long repression, imprisonment and tortures carried out by
>> >> > Gadafi. I could go on...
>> >> >
>> >> > Particularly in the USA the Left (or parts of it) is so obsessed with
>> >> > its
>> >> > own Evil Empire that it cannot recognise, or concern itself with,
>> >> > evils
>> >> > that
>> >> > may not be imperial. I have been twice deeply shocked by the approval
>> >> > or
>> >> > sympathy or understanding demonstrated by two sophisticated and
>> >> > well-published US Leftists for Sendero Luminoso (the Shining Path
>> >> > Maoist
>> >> > guerilla movement in Peru). One of them continued his fascination
>> >> > with
>> >> > them
>> >> > even after I told him of their assasination of Maria-Elena Moyano -
>> >> > elected
>> >> > leader of the women's movement and Deputy Mayor of Villa El Salvador
>> >> > (then
>> >> > the Soweto of Lima). The other's criticism was limited to saying that
>> >> > they
>> >> > had done the guerilla strategy in Latin America a bad turn - in other
>> >> > words
>> >> > that they had been a little too violent or radical.
>> >> >
>> >> > I am therefore disappointed but hardly shocked to hear that Michael
>> >> > Albert
>> >> > refused to publish something which took major issue with Herman and
>> >> > Peterson
>> >> > book. (So all credit to the Australian Green Left for putting this
>> >> > matter up
>> >> > for debate).
>> >> >
>> >> > The issue, however, is not one for the US Left or the Australian
>> >> > Left,
>> >> > it is
>> >> > for the Left. Or at least with the Manichean Left - that part which
>> >> > sees
>> >> > the
>> >> > world in terms of binary oppositions, marked as either Virtuous or
>> >> > Vicious.
>> >> >
>> >> > Indeed, I have long wondered whether we do not need to say Farewell
>> >> > to
>> >> > the
>> >> > Left, covered with the blood and mud of two centuries (and I here
>> >> > include
>> >> > imperialist/militarist Social-Democrats alongside the
>> >> > Lenin-Stalin-Mao-Etc-ists). Or at least to qualify Left in the light
>> >> > of
>> >> > this
>> >> > history. I would suggest 'Emancipatory' as this qualifier today,
>> >> > which
>> >> > would
>> >> > include those in the past who, like Monbiot now, are prepared to be
>> >> > attacked
>> >> > as supporting the line of Washington. In earlier times they were
>> >> > called
>> >> > 'Rootless Cosmopolitans' (Stalin) or 'Running Dogs of US Imperialism'
>> >> > (Mao).
>> >> >
>> >> > I do not unconditionally agree with Monbiot that the trials in The
>> >> > Hague
>> >> > make the world a better place. This because, so far, they have all
>> >> > been
>> >> > of
>> >> > 'lesser breeds without the law' (Bosnia and Serbia being considered
>> >> > as
>> >> > only
>> >> > on the ex-Communist periphery of Western Civilisation). But like
>> >> > Monbiot, I
>> >> > want to see Bush and Blair on trial for mass murders far more
>> >> > extensive
>> >> > than
>> >> > those carried out by Radic. Those trials would certainly make the
>> >> > world
>> >> > a
>> >> > better and safer place.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 12:02 PM, glparramatta
>> >> > <glparramatta at greenleft.org.au> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.monbiot.com/2012/05/21/see-no-evil/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The African left has loudly reject this denialist nonsense from
>> >> >> Edward
>> >> >> Herman and David Peterson
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>  See No Evil
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>    May 21, 2012
>> >> >>
>> >> >> How did genocide denial become a doctrine of the internationalist
>> >> >> left?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> By George Monbiot, published in the Guardian 22nd May 2012.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The term genocide conjures up attempts to kill an entire people: the
>> >> >> German slaughter of the Jews or the Herero, the Turkish slaughter of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Armenians, the near-extermination of the Native Americans. But the
>> >> >> identity of the crime does not depend on its scale or success:
>> >> >> genocide
>> >> >> means “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a
>> >> >> national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”(1)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Though, in 1995, the women and children of Srebrenica were first
>> >> >> removed
>> >> >> from the killing grounds by Bosnian Serb troops, though the 8,000
>> >> >> men
>> >> >> and boys they killed were a small proportion of the Bosnian Muslim
>> >> >> population, it meets the definition. So the trial of Ratko Mladic,
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> troops’ commander, which began last week, matters. Whatever one
>> >> >> thinks
>> >> >> of the even-handedness of international law, and though it remains
>> >> >> true
>> >> >> that men who commissioned or caused the killing of greater numbers
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> people (George Bush and Tony Blair for example(2)) have not been
>> >> >> brought
>> >> >> to justice and are unlikely to be, every prosecution of this kind
>> >> >> makes
>> >> >> the world a better place.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So attempts to downplay or dismiss this crime matter too, especially
>> >> >> when they emerge from the unlikely setting of the internationalist
>> >> >> left.
>> >> >> I’m using this column to pursue a battle which might be hopeless and
>> >> >> which many of you might regard as obscure. Perhaps I have become
>> >> >> obsessed, but it seems to me to be necessary. Tacitly on trial
>> >> >> beside
>> >> >> Mladic in the Hague is a set of ideas: in my view the left’s most
>> >> >> disturbing case of denial and doublethink since the widespread
>> >> >> refusal
>> >> >> to accept that Stalin had engineered a famine in the Ukraine.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I first raised this issue a year ago, whenI sharply criticised a
>> >> >> book
>> >> >> <http://www.monbiot.com/2011/06/13/naming-the-genocide-deniers/> by
>> >> >> two
>> >> >> luminaries of the left, Edward Herman and David Peterson. The
>> >> >> Politics
>> >> >> of Genocide seeks to downplay or dismiss both the massacre of
>> >> >> Bosniaks
>> >> >> at Srebrenica in 1995 and the genocide of Tutsis committed by Hutu
>> >> >> militias in Rwanda in 1994(3). Their claims are extraordinary: that
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> cause of death of the “vast majority” of the Bosniaks at Srebrenica
>> >> >> remains “undetermined”(4); that rather than 800,000 or more Tutsis
>> >> >> being
>> >> >> killed by Hutu militias in Rwanda, “the great majority of deaths
>> >> >> were
>> >> >> Hutu, with some estimates as high as two million”(5), while members
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the Hutus’ Interahamwe militia were the “actual victims” of
>> >> >> genocide(6).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What has changed since then is that the movement to which I thought
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> belonged has closed ranks: against attempts to challenge this
>> >> >> revisionism, against the facts, in effect against the victims of
>> >> >> these
>> >> >> genocides. My attempts to pursue this question number among the most
>> >> >> dispiriting experiences of my working life.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> After I covered the issue last year, Herman and Peterson wrote a
>> >> >> long
>> >> >> denunciation on the Znet site(7). I believe in testing every
>> >> >> proposition, so I set out to discover whether, as they insisted, I
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> wrong. I consulted four of the world’s leading genocide scholars:
>> >> >> Martin
>> >> >> Shaw, Adam Jones, Linda Melvern and Marko Attila Hoare. I asked them
>> >> >> each to write a brief response to the claims the two men made on
>> >> >> Znet.
>> >> >> Their statements, which I have also posted on my website, are
>> >> >> devastating(8,9,10,11). They accuse Herman and Peterson of
>> >> >> obsfucating,
>> >> >> distorting and misrepresenting the evidence, and of engaging in
>> >> >> genocide
>> >> >> denial.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For Edward Herman and David Peterson to be right, the entire canon
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> serious scholarship, human rights investigations, exhumations and
>> >> >> witness statements would have to be wrong. Extraordinary claims
>> >> >> require
>> >> >> extraordinary evidence. But they offer little but the recycled
>> >> >> claims
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> genocidaires and genocide deniers, mashed up with their own
>> >> >> misrepresentations.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But this discovery did not disturb me as much as the responses of
>> >> >> their
>> >> >> supporters. I wrote to Michael Albert, the publisher of Znet, asking
>> >> >> whether he might publish Martin Shaw’s review of Herman and
>> >> >> Peterson’s
>> >> >> book (originally published in the the Journal of Genocide
>> >> >> Research(12))
>> >> >> as a counterweight to their article. He flatly refused, then went on
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> accuse me of a long list of heinous beliefs.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I wrote to Noam Chomsky, a hero of mine, who provided the forward to
>> >> >> Herman and Peterson’s book, asking whether he had read it and
>> >> >> whether
>> >> >> he
>> >> >> accepted the accounts it contains of the Rwandan genocide and the
>> >> >> massacre of Srebrenica. Watching that brilliant mind engage in
>> >> >> high-handed dismissal and distraction has been profoundly
>> >> >> depressing.
>> >> >> While failing to answer my questions, he accused me of following the
>> >> >> Washington script (I have posted our correspondence on my
>> >> >> website(13)).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> John Pilger, who wrote a glowing endorsement of the book,
>> >> >> volunteered
>> >> >> this response: “Chef Monbiot is a curiously sad figure. All those
>> >> >> years
>> >> >> of noble green crusading now dashed by his Damascene conversion to
>> >> >> nuclear power’s poisonous devastations and his demonstrable need for
>> >> >> establishment recognition – a recognition which, ironically, he
>> >> >> already
>> >> >> enjoyed.”(14) The leftwing magazine Counterpunch cited my article as
>> >> >> evidence that I am a member of the “thought police”, and that the
>> >> >> role
>> >> >> of the Guardian is “to limit the imaginative horizons of
>> >> >> readers.”(15)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thus has this infectious idiocy spread though the political
>> >> >> community
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> which I belong. The people I criticise here rightly contend that
>> >> >> western
>> >> >> governments and much of the western media ignore or excuse
>> >> >> atrocities
>> >> >> committed by the US and its allies, while magnifying those committed
>> >> >> by
>> >> >> forces deemed hostile. But they then appear to create a mirror image
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> this one-sided narrative, minimising the horrors committed by forces
>> >> >> considered hostile to the US and its allies.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Perhaps this looks to you like the kind of esoteric infighting to
>> >> >> which
>> >> >> the left too often succumbs, but this seems to me to be important:
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> important as any other human rights issue. If people who claim to
>> >> >> care
>> >> >> about justice and humanity cannot resist what looks to me like
>> >> >> blatant
>> >> >> genocide denial, we find ourselves in a very dark place.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Those of us who seek to judge a case on its merits, rather than
>> >> >> according to the identity of the victims and perpetrators, have a
>> >> >> duty
>> >> >> to defend the memory of people being airbrushed by Herman, Peterson
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> their supporters. This does not make us apologists for western
>> >> >> power,
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> establishment flunkies or thought police. It means only that we care
>> >> >> about the facts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> www.monbiot.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> References:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. United Nations, 1948. Convention on the Prevention and Punishment
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the Crime of Genocide
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/genocide.htm
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2. http://www.arrestblair.org/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 3. Edward S Herman and David Peterson, 2010. The Politics of
>> >> >> Genocide.
>> >> >> Monthly Review Press. New York.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 4.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.zcommunications.org/george-monbiot-and-the-guardian-on-genocide-denial-and-revisionism-by-edward-s-herman
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 5. The Politics of Genocide, page 54.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 6. The Politics of Genocide, page 58.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 7. Edward S. Herman and David Peterson, 4th September 2011. George
>> >> >> Monbiot and the Guardian on “Genocide Denial” and “Revisionism”.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.zcommunications.org/george-monbiot-and-the-guardian-on-genocide-denial-and-revisionism-by-edward-s-herman
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 8.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.monbiot.com/2012/05/21/genocide-denial-expert-assessments/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> See also the following reviews of Herman and Peterson’s book:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 9. Martin Shaw, September 2011. Review of The Politics of Genocide.
>> >> >> Journal of Genocide Research, Vol.13, no.3, pp353–387.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 10. Gerald Caplan, 17th June 2010. The politics of denialism: The
>> >> >> strange case of Rwanda: Review of ‘The Politics of Genocide’.
>> >> >> Pambazuka
>> >> >> Issue 486. http://pambazuka.org/en/category/features/65265
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 11. Adam Jones, 16th November 2010. Denying Rwanda: : A Response to
>> >> >> Herman & Peterson.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://jonestream.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/denying-rwanda-response-to-herman.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 12. Martin Shaw, September 2011. Review of The Politics of Genocide.
>> >> >> Journal of Genocide Research, Vol.13, no.3, pp353–387.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 13. http://www.monbiot.com/2012/05/21/2181/
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 14. John Pilger, quoted by David Edwards, 5th August 2011. A ‘Malign
>> >> >> Intellectual Subculture’ – George Monbiot Smears Chomsky, Herman,
>> >> >> Peterson, Pilger And Media Lens.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=637
>> >> >> Also at:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.zcommunications.org/a-malign-intellectual-subculture-george-monbiot-smears-chomsky-herman-peterson-pilger-and-media-lens-by-dave-edwards
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 15. Jonathan Cook, 28th September 2011. A Thought Police for the
>> >> >> Internet Age: the Dangerous Cult of the Guardian.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/28/the-dangerous-cult-of-the-guardian/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Debate-list mailing list
>> >> >> Debate-list at fahamu.org
>> >> >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
>> >> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
>> >> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>> >> >    1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
>> >> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
>> >> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
>> >> > (draft):
>> >> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>> >> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
>> >> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
>> >> > Unions':
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Debate-list mailing list
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>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Yoshie Furuhashi
>> >> <http://mrzine.org/>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Debate-list mailing list
>> >> Debate-list at fahamu.org
>> >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
>> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
>> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>> >    1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
>> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
>> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
>> > (draft):
>> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
>> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
>> > Unions':
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > Debate-list at fahamu.org
>> > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Yoshie Furuhashi
>> <http://mrzine.org/>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Debate-list mailing list
>> Debate-list at fahamu.org
>> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
>
>
>
>
> --
> 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>    1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10' (draft):
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade   Unions':
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Debate-list mailing list
> Debate-list at fahamu.org
> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
>



-- 
Yoshie Furuhashi
<http://mrzine.org/>

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