[Debate] Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism-Maoism-Yoshism: An Infectious Virus?

Tue Jun 19 15:43:47 BST 2012

any incivility i engaged in was mine and mine alone! that said I don't
think Yoshie should be banned, much as I like your three levels of
engagement, this is the "debate" list after all!

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 6:44 AM, peter waterman <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> I was going to start with the Bernard Shaw fridge-magnet which says:
>
>                                 'Never fight with a pig; you get dirty and
> the pig likes it.'
>
> I feared, however, protests from Shaw that he died before fridge-magnets,
> and from Yoshie that I was comparing her to an intelligent but stubborn and
> single-minded mammal. She is, after all, much broader on her two other
> personal sites, Critical Montages and MRZine. There just seems to be
> something about Debate that brings out the worst in her.
>
> The thought then struck me that the problem on Debate recently (and over
> time) is the lowering of the level of exchange on the part of most of us
> who bother to respond to Yoshie. If one considers the three types of
> exchange I identify (there must be better typologies), Debate, Discussion,
> Dialogue, Yoshie's contributions remain in the first category. (Oh, yes,
> Debate = war by verbal means; Discussion = listening to the other; Dialogue
> = learning from the other).
>
> So it seems that Yoshism is more like something infectious, affecting all
> of us who respond to her. And when I say 'us', I obviously include myself.
>
> So I am wondering whether it is worthwhile at all to engage in exchanges
> with Yoshie. And also whether she is not simply a nuisance on the list but
> someone damaging to it. Some points here:
>
> 1. Whatever of value Yoshie says on this list she expresses or reveals
> much more politely on her own ones.
> 2. Whatever her concerns, or obsessions, are, they are likely to be found
> elsewhere on the list, and then expressed civilly, by others.
> 3. Removing her from the list would still leave her with two of her own,
> as well as access to any and every other list that may not have previously
> expelled her.
>
> I am confident that Patrick has sent Yoshie various warnings. I would
> hazard a guess that these must be more than my three or four. (I stand here
> to be corrected, Patrick, with respect to both of us).
>
> So I am wondering whether Patrick might not like to poll Debaters on
> whether or not she should continue to be tolerated. To make this more than
> a Yoshie matter, I would be happy to have my name likewise polled.
>
> I am finding Yoshism too much like the Manichean and bullying language and
> style of the gauleiters of the Communist International to be personally
> tolerable. So I am anyway considering dropping off the list. It's just too
> much macho agro for my (somewhat, sometimes) more delicate ex-CP psyche.
>
> PeterW
>
> --
> *1.* Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements<http://www.interfacejournal.net/2011/06/call-for-papers-volume-4-issue-2-for-the-global-emancipation-of-labour-new-movements-and-struggles-around-work-workers-and-precarity/>
> '!
> *2. Blog:* http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> *3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>      1990s* s <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
> http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> *4.* WorkingPaper *2012*: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies'<http://www.iisg.nl/publications/respap49.pdf>
> :
> *5.* Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
> (draft):
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> *6. *Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
> Unions': <http://www.unionbook.org/profiles/blogs/peter-waterman-the-second-coming-of-the-wftu-updated>
>
>
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>

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