[Debate] Debate-list Digest, Vol 39, Issue 268

rosemary galli gallirose at hotmail.com
Thu Jul 19 17:13:21 BST 2012 

`Peter, I'm glad someone can maintain a sense of humour in these exchanges--not that they are not interesting.

> From: debate-list-request at fahamu.org
> Subject: Debate-list Digest, Vol 39, Issue 268
> To: debate-list at fahamu.org
> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 17:11:44 +0100
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Russia, China Veto Western-backed Syria Resolution at UN
>       Security Council (peter waterman)
>    2. Re: (Fwd) Against Assad (and Tariq Ali, too) (Yoshie Furuhashi)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:00:30 +0200
> From: peter waterman <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Debate] Russia, China Veto Western-backed Syria
> 	Resolution at UN Security Council
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and
> 	analyses of	interest to the independent left in South and Southern
> 	Africa	<debate-list at fahamu.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAN-nHJPAwb+0MWvpG2PCQrnjS5gdPBu9NVFChzvUW0ebxNeznA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Am I receiving this from Yoshie El Furuhashi?
> 
> I know or believe them to be Syrians. But Syrians, as you very well know,
> identify themselves by ethnicity, gender, class, orientation toward the
> dictatorship, support of or fear of the uprising, Islamic sect and [fill
> this space].
> 
> Pw
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi <
> critical.montages at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The tweeps whom I have sampled here for you are Syrians.  You are not
> > Syrian.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:29 AM, peter waterman
> > <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I am not sure that either the 'syrian people' (whoever those using this
> > > signature might be), or outsiders implicitly siding with the present
> > regime
> > > there, should rejoice at the anti-Western stand of Russia and China.
> > >
> > > All we are here witnessing, surely, is a continuation of Cold War great
> > > power politicking over the bodies of the Syrian people (without
> > apostophes).
> > >
> > > That Russia and China continue, with respect to the Middle East (actually
> > > West Asia) the policies of their Communist forerunners (remember when
> > China
> > > was Communist?) should only signal to us that these forerunner regimes
> > were
> > > not Communist, in any Marxist sense, but nationalist, state-building,
> > > populist, modernist, militarist and imperialist. Whatever their origins
> > > original aspirations, and initial liberations, they either rapidly or
> > > eventually, showed themselves to run in parallel with rather than to be
> > > surpassers of capitalism. Thus, the Soviet Union was the big ally of
> > Nasser
> > > whilst the same Nasser had Egyptian Communists in Saharan prisons. And
> > > Russia and China backed different nationalist movements in Zimbabwe. And
> > > identified with different states or liberation movements in inter-African
> > > wars in the North-East of Africa.
> > >
> > > For more recent evidence, consider Chinese expansionism and 'development
> > > aid' in what Western Colonial cartographers named the South China Sea, or
> > > its reproduction of (neo-)colonial strategies in Africa.
> > >
> > > Whilst certainly appreciating tension or conflicts amongs the (would-be)
> > > hegemons, the challenge to radical-democratic forces locally and globally
> > > is, surely, to develop and impose another logic, informed by
> > > radical-democratic, pacific, ecologically-friendly and socialist values.
> > >
> > > pw
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 4:55 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi
> > > <critical.montages at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> <http://www.rt.com/news/russia-china-unsc-veto-syria-584/>
> > >> Russia, China veto western-backed Syria resolution at UN Security
> > Council
> > >> Published: 19 July, 2012, 18:36
> > >>
> > >> Russia and China have vetoed a United Nations Security Council
> > >> resolution that threatened Syria with more sanctions.
> > >>
> > >> It was the third time in nine months that Russia and China used their
> > >> powers as permanent members of the 15-nation council to block
> > >> resolutions on Syria. There were 11 votes in favor of the resolution.
> > >> Russia and China voted against it, while South Africa and Pakistan
> > >> abstained from voting.
> > >>
> > >> * * *
> > >>
> > >> 14m cherine ?@cherine_89
> > >> Thankyou ?#Russia? and ?#China? on your third double VETO for ?#Syria?
> > >> @AmbassadorRice and ?#Clinton? can sit on it...
> > >>
> > >> 15m THE syrian girl ?@thesyriangirl
> > >> Dear ?#France? don't talk about the "aspiration" of the ?#Syrian? ppl
> > >> u don't know anything about us or what we want!! ?#Syria?
> > >> ?#doubleveto?
> > >>
> > >> 15m ??? ?@H_13512
> > >> At least there's good news today .. Double veto. Thank you Russia and
> > >> China.
> > >>
> > >> 15m SyrianElectronicArmy ?@Official_SEA
> > >> Thank you ?#Russia? Thank you ?#China? .... From ?#Syrian? people
> > >>
> > >> 15m Lt. Muqawami ?@LtHussamov
> > >> Thank you ?#Russia? Thank you ?#China?
> > >>
> > >> 15m S??e? ???? ?@sate3
> > >> A Russian-Chinese double veto in the Security Council for the third
> > >> time. Thank you Russia! Thank you China! ?#Syria?
> > >>
> > >> 17m Sandy ?@Sandy_Madridsta
> > >> Another Veto from ?#Russia? & ?#China? in Security Council... From
> > >> every Syrian THANK YOU for choosing the truth ?#Syria?
> > >> pic.twitter.com/y4XLXV0R
> > >>
> > >> 19m syrian gi ?@trini_arab
> > >> thank you ?#russia? and ?#china?...?#doubleveto?!!!! sorry U.N.
> > >>
> > >> 22m Seeba ??? ?@seebaaa_exoh
> > >> Double veto again :D thank you Russia and China<3
> > >> Retweeted by MRZine
> > >>
> > >> 36m ????? ????? ?@SyrianEliii10
> > >> China Russia Iran and Venezuela thank you for being real with Syria.
> > >> The Syrian people will never forget you guys. Much love from us
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Yoshie Furuhashi
> > >> <http://mrzine.org/>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Debate-list mailing list
> > >> Debate-list at fahamu.org
> > >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> > > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> > > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> > > 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> > > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> > > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
> > (draft):
> > >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
> > >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> > > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
> > Unions':
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Debate-list mailing list
> > > Debate-list at fahamu.org
> > > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Yoshie Furuhashi
> > <http://mrzine.org/>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Debate-list mailing list
> > Debate-list at fahamu.org
> > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *1.* Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker
> Movements<http://www.interfacejournal.net/2011/06/call-for-papers-volume-4-issue-2-for-the-global-emancipation-of-labour-new-movements-and-struggles-around-work-workers-and-precarity/>
> '!
> *2. Blog:* http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> *3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>    1990s* s <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
> http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> *4.* WorkingPaper *2012*: 'Emancipatory Labour
> Studies'<http://www.iisg.nl/publications/respap49.pdf>
> :
> *5.* Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
> (draft):
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> *6. *Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
> Unions': <http://www.unionbook.org/profiles/blogs/peter-waterman-the-second-coming-of-the-wftu-updated>
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 12:09:08 -0400
> From: Yoshie Furuhashi <critical.montages at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Debate] (Fwd) Against Assad (and Tariq Ali, too)
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and
> 	analyses of	interest to the independent left in South and Southern
> 	Africa	<debate-list at fahamu.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAKJmU8QEfR8-xxKU65_ya+e-7C==AkPf3Ak7otBksbH-Yo4h7A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> A young Syrian man in Damascus observes:
> 
> <https://twitter.com/Ali_W_Hasan/status/225978387783630848>
> Ali W. Hasan
> ?@Ali_W_Hasan
> 
> ?#FSA? and ?#SNC? are so mutch fucked now!!! douple ?#vito? in the
> Securety Council and on ground ?#SyrianArabArmy? is smashing them down
> ?#Damascus?
> 
> 11:40 AM - 19 Jul 12 via Gravity! ? Embed this Tweet
> 
> Could it be that Lenin got a point about the inadvisability of going
> to war without a proper army capable of winning it?  "It is clear to
> everyone (except those intoxicated with empty phrases) that to
> undertake a serious insurrectionary or military clash knowing that we
> have no forces, knowing that we have no army, is a [losing] gamble. .
> . ."
> 
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:56 AM, peter waterman
> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yup, Neville, and apart from his failing here, he was not too good on the
> > Worker-Peasant Alliance either.
> >
> > Pw
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Neville Adams <nada01 at claranet.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I think lenin was offering up a critique, not a validation of your
> >> position.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org
> >> [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
> >> On Behalf Of Yoshie Furuhashi
> >> Sent: 19 July 2012 16:06
> >> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and
> >> analyses
> >> of interest to the independent left in South and Southern Africa
> >> Subject: Re: [Debate] (Fwd) Against Assad (and Tariq Ali, too)
> >>
> >> "By revolutionary phrase making we mean the repetition of revolutionary
> >> slogans irrespective of objective circumstances at a given turn invents,
> >> in
> >> the given state of affairs obtaining at the time. The slogans are superb,
> >> alluring, intoxicating, but there are no grounds for them; such is the
> >> nature of the revolutionary phrase." -- V. I. Lenin
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Patrick Bond <pbond at mail.ngo.za> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > (Here's a demolition job, of "a regime that has been oppressing the
> >> > Syrian people for the past 40 years, that has killed more than 15000
> >> > martyrs since the beginning of the revolution, imprisoned and tortured
> >> > tens of thousands, that has shelled and destroyed cities, villages and
> >> > Palestinian refugee camps,  implemented neo liberal policies that has
> >> > impoverished a society as a whole while the close family of the
> >> > dictator Assad ( Rami Makhlouf) accumulated in the same period 60% of
> >> > Syria?s wealth, that has abandoned and announced the loss of the Golan
> >> > 11 hours before the first Israeli soldier set a feat in the city of
> >> > Quneitra, that has not shot a single bullet to liberate the occupied
> >> > Golan since 1973, that has entered in peace negotiations with Israel
> >> > on numerous occasions, that has collaborated and served western
> >> > imperialist regime in the region to crush the Palestinian movement and
> >> > the left in Lebanon in the seventies and in many other cases.")
> >> >
> >> > Search
> >> >
> >> > Main menu
> >> >
> >> > Skip to primary content
> >> > Skip to secondary content
> >> >
> >> > Home
> >> > About
> >> > Newspapers of Revolutionary left in Syria and others ? ????? ??????
> >> > ?????? ?? ????? ?????? Political Programs ? ????? ?????? Statements ?
> >> > ?????? The Revolution in Pictures ? ?????? ?? ??? Videos ? ?????
> >> >
> >> > Response to Tareq Ali: What is Really happening in Syria?
> >> >
> >> > Posted on July 18, 2012
> >> >
> >> > ?Video: Tariq Ali on the grim choice facing Syrians.
> >> >
> >> > ?TARIQ ALI says we are witnessing in Syria a new form of
> >> > re-colonisation by the West, like we have already seen in Iraq and in
> >> Libya.
> >> >
> >> > Many of the people who first rose against the Assad regime in Syria
> >> > have been sidelined, leaving the Syrian people with limited choices,
> >> > neither of which they want: either a Western imposed regime, ?composed
> >> > of sundry Syrians who work for the western intelligence agencies?, or
> >> > the Assad regime.
> >> >
> >> > The only way forward, in the interests of all Syrians, says Ali, is
> >> > negotiation and discussion. But it is now obvious that the West is not
> >> > going to let that happen because they are backing the opposition
> >> > groups who are against any negotiation.?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/tariq-ali-what-is-really-happening-in-syria?
> >> >
> >> > As these words came out from an important figure of the International
> >> > left, it is necessary to answer and contradict them and for others
> >> > also on the left to show that this is not an opinion shared by all
> >> > comrades. This is why I will deconstruct the interview of Tareq Ali
> >> > and demonstrates not only his wrong analysis and information on the
> >> > Syrian revolution but his  elitism as well.
> >> >
> >> > The UK Stop the War Coalition has of course put this video as fast
> >> > possible on their website, following the same path they have pursued
> >> > lately (see previous open letter to STWC on their position regarding
> >> > Syria
> >>
> >> http://syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/open-letter-to-the-stop-
> >> the-war-coalition-stwc-or-real-solidarity-is-needed/).
> >> >
> >> > Houla massacre, Opposition?s responsibility?
> >> >
> >> > Tareq Ali has claimed that he had information that the Houla Massacre
> >> > might not have been carried out by the regime through its shabiha
> >> > (thugs) but by the armed opposition. The testimonies of eyewitnesses
> >> > of Houla who survived the massacre claimed actually the opposite and
> >> > accused the regime to have committed these massacres
> >> >
> >>
> >> (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/eyewitnesses-contradict-claims-th
> >> at-rebels-carried-out-houla-massacre-a-839593.html).
> >> >
> >> > Groups on the ground struggling for against the regime such as the
> >> > Local Coordination Committees (http://www.lccsyria.org/8607) and
> >> > others popular committee and political parties have denounced the
> >> > regime for this massacre and accused the regime to be responsible for
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> > Deconstructing the myth of the International Community and Western
> >> > position: ?a new form of re-colonization by the West? and ?But it is
> >> > now obvious that the West is not going to let that happen because they
> >> > are backing the opposition groups who are against any negotiation?
> >> >
> >> > Yes, the US, France and the UK have declared that it wants a
> >> > resolution adopted at the Security Council that includes Chapter VII
> >> > of the UN charter, which allows for punitive measures against regimes
> >> > considered a threat to world peace, including economic sanctions and
> >> > military intervention, and yes Russia and China have applied their
> >> > vetos to it several times now. But should we stop the analysis here
> >> > and therefore say the West wants regime change in Syria?
> >> >
> >> > The international community as a whole and without exception, has
> >> > actually been trying to implement a solution like Yemen to Syria since
> >> > the beginning of the Syrian revolution, as we saw during several
> >> > meetings between U.S. and Russian officials, the US President Obama in
> >> > June going as far as to declare that ?We agreed that we need to see a
> >> > cessation of violence, that a political process has to be created to
> >> > prevent civil war,? and the Russian Prime Minister Putin adding that
> >> > ?We have found many common points on this issue,? ( see for more info:
> >> >
> >>
> >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/28/syria-washington-moscow-
> >> us-russia).
> >> > After follow-up meetings, Hillary Clinton, US secretary of state, and
> >> > Sergei Lavrov, Putin?s foreign minister, have agreed to attend an
> >> > international summit on expediting Syria?s political transition to be
> >> > convened in Geneva end of June by the UN envoy, Kofi Annan.  At talks
> >> > in Geneva, the five countries of the UN Security Council (Russia, the
> >> > United States, China, France and Britain) along with regional actors
> >> > including Turkey, Kuwait, Qatar and Iraq, have agreed on the following
> >> > framework: a transition government, which would include members of
> >> > Assad?s administration and the opposition. The role of Assad was not
> >> > clear
> >> in this transition proposal.
> >> >
> >> > The NATO has on its side repeatedly declared its unwillingness to
> >> > intervene in Syria and that the conflict should be resolved politically.
> >> >
> >> > The solution regarding the Syrian revolution has always been the same:
> >> > to keep the structure of the regime intact, while the only debate is
> >> > on Bachar Al Assad?s fate. All the major powers do not indeed see any
> >> > advantage in the collapse of the Syrian regime because of its lengthy
> >> > collaboration with western imperialism (see previous articles on the
> >> > subject on the blog, such as
> >> >
> >>
> >> http://syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/understand-the-syrian-re
> >> gime-and-the-dialectics-of-the-syrian-revolutionary-process/).
> >> >
> >> > ?Many of the people who first rose against the Assad regime in Syria
> >> > have been sidelined?,
> >> >
> >> > The word Mr Tareq Ali should be using is not sidelined, but more
> >> > exactly assassinated, imprisoned and forced to exile. Yes, a high
> >> > number of great activists and opponents, people behind the
> >> > organization of demonstrations, civil disobedience, and strike
> >> > campaigns have been indeed targeted specifically by  the regime, in
> >> addition to the 15 000 other martyrs.
> >> > Nevertheless, those who have survived still play an important role in
> >> > the Syrian revolutionary process, and are trying to foment various
> >> > popular forms of resistance against the regime.
> >> >
> >> > Mr Tareq Ali?s argument misses the millions of people struggling on a
> >> > daily basis in Syria against the regime? The students, workers,
> >> > unemployed, peasants, Syrians from all communities and ethnicities,
> >> > Palestinians refugees struggling against the Syrian regime should be
> >> > considered by any serious analysis, all the more revolutionary analysis.
> >> >
> >> > Today, not a week goes by without the voices and songs of the students
> >> > of the University of Damascus being heard at the presidential palace,
> >> > close to a hundred meters, while almost daily demonstrations take
> >> > place at the universities of Deraa and Deir al-Zur. Aleppo University
> >> > has suspended its course for fear of an uprising even more important
> >> > for young people, while the bullets are more numerous than the books at
> >> the University of Homs.
> >> >
> >> > The working people were also targets of repression. During the month
> >> > of December 2011, successful campaigns of civil disobedience and
> >> > general strikes were held in Syria. They have paralyzed large parts of
> >> > the country, showing that the mobilization of the working class and
> >> > exploited is at the heart of the Syrian revolution. This is why the
> >> > dictatorship, seeking to break the dynamics of protest, fired more
> >> > than 85,000 workers between January 2011 and February 2012 and closed
> >> > 187 factories (according to official figures).
> >> >
> >> > The bulk of the protesters of the Syrian revolutionary movement
> >> > actually include the economically disenfranchised rural and urban
> >> > working and middle classes who have suffered from the accelerated
> >> > imposition of neoliberal policies by Bashar Al Assad since his arrival
> >> > to
> >> power.
> >> >
> >> > Did Mr Tareq Ali saw the position and the mobilization of the Syrian
> >> > people of the Syrian occupied Golan against the regime and in
> >> > solidarity with the struggle of their brothers, sisters, comrades
> >> > throughout their country? They have understood long ago that the
> >> > liberation of the occupied Golan goes through Damascus and the overthrow
> >> of the Assad regime.
> >> >
> >> > Kurds, Assyrians and other Syrian ethnic minorities have also been a
> >> > driving force in the struggle against the regime, which has
> >> > discriminated them for the past 40 years.
> >> >
> >> > Palestinians have participated in the revolution among their Syrian
> >> > brothers and sisters and have paid a heavy price, something that
> >> > should go amiss within the Syrian and Palestinian struggle for freedom.
> >> >
> >> > Yarmouk refugee Camp has witnessed huge demonstrations Friday July
> >> > 13th against the regime. The Palestinians refugees in Yarmouk Camp
> >> > have after the shelling by the regime of Tadamon neighborhood close by
> >> > to the camp welcomed its residents who fled to Yarmouk camp. They
> >> > brought to schools and mosques mattresses, blankets and other
> >> > provisions to aid tens of families that left Tadamon while being
> >> > shelled. Same scenes have been witnessed in other regions of Syria,
> >> > Palestinian refugees welcoming in their camps Syrian fleeing the
> >> > shelling of their cities, neighborhoods and villages. As chanted in
> >> > the streets Syrian and Palestinians have shown there ?are one hand?, in
> >> other words united against the regime.
> >> >
> >> > The Syrian people continued as well to repeat their rejection of
> >> > sectarianism, despite the regime?s attempts to ignite this dangerous
> >> > fire.
> >> > The protests and messages of solidarity between Syrians have not
> >> > stopped ( see Statement by the LCC Regarding the Massacre that
> >> > Happened in Teremsah
> >>
> >> http://www.facebook.com/notes/%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9
> >>
> >> %86%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%82-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AD%D9%84%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D9%81%D9%8
> >>
> >> A-%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%A7/a-statement-by-the-lcc-regarding-the-massac
> >> re-that-happened-in-teremsah/496131610413980).
> >> > The popular movement has also reaffirmed its struggle for the unity of
> >> > the Syrian people and against the divisions, developing a sense of
> >> > national solidarity and social that transcends ethnic and sectarian
> >> divisions.
> >> >
> >> > Therefore should these people be considered and just treated as
> >> > ?sundry Syrians who work for the western intelligence??  Should the
> >> > downtrodden, the exploited and the discriminated of Syria, who are the
> >> > bulk of the Syrian popular movement, are just simple instrument of
> >> > Saudi and US imperialist policies?
> >> >
> >> > Qatar and Saudi Arabia?s role in arming the armed opposition?
> >> >
> >> > Most of the armed opposition groups have denied the reception of
> >> > weapons supplied by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, despite Western media
> >> > claims
> >>
> >> (http://world.time.com/2012/06/22/opening-the-weapons-tap-syrias-rebels-awai
> >> t-fresh-and-free-ammo/).
> >> >
> >> > The far majority of the armed opposition groups are struggling against
> >> > the regime with basic equipment (including army Kalashnikov, Dragunov
> >> > sniper rifle, machine gun PKT and rocket launchers RPG-7) stolen or
> >> > purchased from the corrupt Syrian army. The more sophisticated
> >> > equipments were, especially Metis and Kornet anti-tank missiles,
> >> > generally gained and captured in battle with the regular forces of the
> >> > Syrian regime or by buying them to corrupt officers
> >> >
> >> > This is does not mean some arms and ammos were not delivered to the
> >> > armed opposition groups but not as we portray it as organized and in big
> >> quantity.
> >> > A first large delivery was provided in few months ago (March or
> >> > April), and was allocated to various selected groups operation in and
> >> > around Idlib, Hama, Homs and the outskirts of Damascus. Each area
> >> > received several hundred rocket-propelled grenade launchers (with 10
> >> > grenades per launcher), Kalashnikov rifles, BKC machine guns and
> >> > ammunition, according to several sources
> >> >
> >>
> >> (http://world.time.com/2012/06/22/opening-the-weapons-tap-syrias-rebels-awai
> >> t-fresh-and-free-ammo/).
> >> > There were also two smaller consignments since the first delivery, but
> >> > none of it was made following the demands of the armed opposition
> >> > groups. These latter just took what were given to them.
> >> >
> >> > According to various opposition sources, only small amount of arms
> >> > have been sent by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, while the Turks have denied
> >> > any role in arming the Syrian rebels. A large amount of armed
> >> > opposition groups have actually refuse to pledge allegiance to the
> >> > Gulf groups, a condition by these latter on delivery of weapons and
> >> >
> >>
> >> arms(http://world.time.com/2012/06/22/opening-the-weapons-tap-syrias-rebels-
> >> await-fresh-and-free-ammo/).
> >> >
> >> > The claim of Saudi Arabia to pay the FSA elements is still awaited and
> >> > is not happening until now, while CIA presence in Southern Turkey is
> >> > more an operation to list the armed opposition groups than to assist
> >> > them in any way. A high religious cleric member of the High Council of
> >> > Oulemas, the most important religious authority in Saudi Arabia, has
> >> > actually issued a Fatwa beginning of June forbidding Saudis to go
> >> > fight the Syrian regime, or in other words to make the Jihad in Syria.
> >> >
> >> > Some of the armed opposition groups also used to purchase weapons and
> >> > munitions via smugglers from Iraq, Lebanon and Turkey, but these
> >> > passages have been weakened considerably as these countries have
> >> > arrested and forbidden increasingly any movement of arms on their
> >> > borders. And above all how can the oppressed and the oppressor be put on
> >> the same level?
> >> >
> >> > The only way forward, in the interests of all Syrians, says Tareq Ali,
> >> > is negotiation and discussion?
> >> >
> >> >  Above all Mr Tareq Ali claims to know what?s best for all the Syrians
> >> > and this is negotiation and discussion with a regime that has refused
> >> > both since the beginning of the revolution and has only answered with
> >> > repression and more violent repression. Syrians started to demonstrate
> >> > peacefully in the beginning asking for reforms and end of corruption,
> >> > how were they answered by the regime? With bullets, assassination,
> >> > arrests
> >> and torture!
> >> >
> >> > Today as we speak, not a single party or group in the opposition (the
> >> > real one and not the one accepted by the regime and included in its
> >> > last government, which has been refused by the Syrians who are still
> >> > in the streets struggling against the regime) is asking for a dialogue
> >> > with the regime. All the forces on the ground refuse any dialogue with
> >> > the
> >> regime.
> >> > The minimum and first demands are the overthrow of Bachar Al Assad and
> >> > his close associates, a transition government, the establishment of
> >> > all civil liberties, the end of the repression, the liberation of
> >> > political prisoners and the return of opponents in exile.
> >> >
> >> > Conclusion
> >> >
> >> > \No Mr Tareq Ali the Syrian people does not want to discuss and
> >> > negotiate with a regime that has been oppressing the Syrian people for
> >> > the past 40 years, that has killed more than 15000 martyrs since the
> >> > beginning of the revolution, imprisoned and tortured tens of
> >> > thousands, that has shelled and destroyed cities, villages and
> >> > Palestinian refugee camps,  implemented neo liberal policies that has
> >> > impoverished a society as a whole while the close family of the
> >> > dictator Assad ( Rami Makhlouf) accumulated in the same period 60% of
> >> > Syria?s wealth, that has abandoned and announced the loss of the Golan
> >> > 11 hours before the first Israeli soldier set a feat in the city of
> >> > Quneitra, that has not shot a single bullet to liberate the occupied
> >> > Golan since 1973, that has entered in peace negotiations with Israel
> >> > on numerous occasions, that has collaborated and served western
> >> > imperialist regime in the region to crush the Palestinian movement and
> >> > the left in Lebanon in the seventies and in many other cases (Jordan
> >> > 1970, black September, Iraqi war in 1991, and 2003 see
> >>
> >> http://syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/understand-the-syrian-re
> >> gime-and-the-dialectics-of-the-syrian-revolutionary-process/).
> >> >
> >> > The Syrian revolution is part of the revolutionary process taking
> >> > place in the Arab world, and should not be separated. The Syrian
> >> > people are struggling like Egyptians, Tunisians, Bahrainis and other
> >> > democrats, socialists and anti-imperialists in the region.
> >> >
> >> > No Mr Tareq Ali, it is not in the interests of the Syrian people to
> >> > discuss and negotiate with this regime. And Tareq Ali should be
> >> > reminded as well of the wise words of the French revolutionary St Just
> >> > who said that those who make half of a revolution gig their own grave.
> >> >
> >> > The solution is to overthrow the regime and transfer of power to the
> >> > people of Syria!
> >> >
> >> > Because as written by the French revolutionary Robespierre: ?when the
> >> > government violates the right of the people, insurrection is for the
> >> > people the most sacred and the most indispensable of its duties!?
> >> >
> >> > Victory to the Syrian Revolution, No to Foreign Intervention, and
> >> > Power to the people!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Debate-list mailing list
> >> > Debate-list at fahamu.org
> >> > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Yoshie Furuhashi
> >> <http://mrzine.org/>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Debate-list mailing list
> >> Debate-list at fahamu.org
> >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Debate-list mailing list
> >> Debate-list at fahamu.org
> >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> > 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10' (draft):
> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade   Unions':
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Debate-list mailing list
> > Debate-list at fahamu.org
> > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Yoshie Furuhashi
> <http://mrzine.org/>
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Debate-list mailing list
> Debate-list at fahamu.org
> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> 
> 
> End of Debate-list Digest, Vol 39, Issue 268
> ********************************************
 		 	   		  
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