[Debate] (Fwd) Here we go again (Zapiro)
Chip or Kim
rsmith38 at suddenlink.net
Sun Jul 8 17:43:16 BST 2012
Kim-- Thanks for the pictures. In the last one I was caught short,
even though I shouldn't have been, by your heavy coat. We're working our
way through three or four days of record 100 degree weather here in NC.
Just imagining the colder climate made me feel cooler (for a moment).
Chip
On 7/8/2012 5:51 AM, peter waterman wrote:
> True, Yoshi, but 'everything' includes your present attitudes which,
> during that epoch, I largely shared.
>
> Though, with British ex-CP Marxist historian, Edward Thompson, and
> much of the then New Left, I began to see the problem as being neither
> simply Imperialist Western nor Anti-Imperialist Soviet but the Cold
> War for which both were responsible.
>
> Pw
>
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Yoshie Furuhashi
> <critical.montages at gmail.com <mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Everything reminds you of the Cold War, so it's no surprise.
>
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 3:18 AM, peter waterman
> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com <mailto:peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> > And the connection between this response to my my previous
> posting is....?
> >
> > This reminds me of an exchange between myself and my Soviet
> colleague at the
> > time we were both editors of the monthly of the International
> Union of
> > Students, Prague, 1950s. When I complained about repetition in
> the magazine,
> > he said 'the truth cannot be repeated too often'. Actually it
> can, and is
> > then called a truism - 'a proposition needing no proof or argument'.
> >
> > pw
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Yoshie Furuhashi
> > <critical.montages at gmail.com
> <mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Frankly, common sense should suffice. Arming the mujahideen in
> >> Afghanistan in the Carter-Reagan era didn't help Afghans except
> maybe
> >> warlords, arms dealers, and the like; Syria would be no different.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 2:51 AM, peter waterman
> >> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com
> <mailto:peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> > As usual with Yoshie, she avoids answering a surely
> reasonable question
> >> > and
> >> > then accuses the questioner of holding beliefs which he has never
> >> > expressed.
> >> >
> >> > She maybe needs to read not only that German guy but also
> Orwell and
> >> > Gowers.
> >> >
> >> > Or to perhaps ponder the difference between the China analyses of
> >> > Monthly
> >> > Review and Simon Leys (pseudonym) at the height of MR Maoism.
> >> >
> >> > PW
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Yoshie Furuhashi
> >> > <critical.montages at gmail.com
> <mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I have yet to hear from you or anyone else here what ethical or
> >> >> theoretical framework leads a leftist to believe that giving
> more
> >> >> ammunitions to Syrian and other Arab mujahideen -- against the
> >> >> expressed desire of Syrian progressives for a negotiated
> political
> >> >> solution which gives them a better chance than expanding the
> war would
> >> >> -- will lead to "any humane and emancipatory alternative."
> Did giving
> >> >> a lot of high-tech weapons to mujahideen in Afghanistan lead
> to a
> >> >> "humane and emancipatory alternative" . . . or wars and the
> rise and
> >> >> fall and rise of Taliban?
> >> >>
> >> >> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 2:19 AM, peter waterman
> >> >> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com
> <mailto:peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >> > Kate:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A lot us us are not as informed as Yoshie seems to be
> about Syria or
> >> >> > even
> >> >> > Libya. But we may be sceptical about or turned off by her
> shotgun
> >> >> > fire
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > facts or factoids that seem neither to be informed by any
> theoretical
> >> >> > or
> >> >> > ethical framework nor lead toward any humane and emancipatory
> >> >> > alternative.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Pw
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 4:20 AM, Kate Doyle Griffiths-Dingani
> >> >> > <kategrif at gmail.com <mailto:kategrif at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Honestly for me, I'm not as informed about facts on the
> ground in
> >> >> >> Syria as yoshie or others who take the opposing view; my
> global
> >> >> >> interpretation of the situation is that if one supports
> the working
> >> >> >> class globally we have to realize that the postcolonial
> situation
> >> >> >> inmany countries differs fundamentally from that facing
> anticolonial
> >> >> >> revolutionaries in the 50s through 90s with the
> exceptions of the
> >> >> >> obvious. Neocolonialism is a real thing but so are oppressive
> >> >> >> dictatorial regimes, few of which are fundamentally
> aniimperialist
> >> >> >> much less socialist or even revolutionary. Kneejerk
> antiimpetialusm
> >> >> >> at
> >> >> >> all costs ignores workers' reality and working class
> politics in
> >> >> >> many
> >> >> >> places; leftists should support antiimperialust opposition to
> >> >> >> murderous dictatorial states--otherwise it's just the
> "enemy of my
> >> >> >> enemy" regardless of the effect on workers livilhoods or
> poltical
> >> >> >> expression. What that means in Syria I'm not the best to
> judge, but
> >> >> >> I
> >> >> >> appreciate the framework for identifying it that you've
> laud out.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Jul 7, 2012, at 10:05 PM, Louis Thiemann
> <kiwiza at gmail.com <mailto:kiwiza at gmail.com>>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > That generalization also doesn't convince me. It would
> include
> >> >> >> > Franco because he was more anti-imperialist than the
> centre-left
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > centre-right governments that replaced him after a popular
> >> >> >> > revolution. I don't see how there is a conclusive amount of
> >> >> >> > evidence
> >> >> >> > that the Libyan and Syrian people will loose all they
> won to a few
> >> >> >> > hundred jihadists who smuggled themselves into the
> uprising. The
> >> >> >> > FSA
> >> >> >> > and MB in general are not such scary people, they seem to
> >> >> >> > establish
> >> >> >> > themselves as a moderate right, support elections etc.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Anti-US imperialism can't be the only concern.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Possible paths:
> >> >> >> > 1. Material support to FSA, revolution wins with high
> burdens
> >> >> >> > 2. No support to FSA, revolution looses, Assad stays or
> civil war
> >> >> >> > 3. No support to FSA, non-violent revolution wins
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > You argue that we should put our cards on 3., and what
> you are
> >> >> >> > criticized for is not considering that 2. may well
> happen instead.
> >> >> >> > That's reasonable, or are there other possible paths?
> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > Debate-list mailing list
> >> >> >> > Debate-list at fahamu.org <mailto:Debate-list at fahamu.org>
> >> >> >> >
> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Debate-list mailing list
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> >> >> >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> >> >> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> >> >> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> >> >> > 1990s
> shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
> >> >> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> >> >> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays
> 2000-10'
> >> >> > (draft):
> >> >> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
> >> >> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> >> >> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of
> Trade
> >> >> > Unions':
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Debate-list mailing list
> >> >> > Debate-list at fahamu.org <mailto:Debate-list at fahamu.org>
> >> >> > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Yoshie Furuhashi
> >> >> <http://mrzine.org/>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Debate-list mailing list
> >> >> Debate-list at fahamu.org <mailto:Debate-list at fahamu.org>
> >> >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> >> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> >> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> >> > 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
> >> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> >> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays
> 2000-10'
> >> > (draft):
> >> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
> >> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> >> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
> >> > Unions':
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Debate-list mailing list
> >> > Debate-list at fahamu.org <mailto:Debate-list at fahamu.org>
> >> > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Yoshie Furuhashi
> >> <http://mrzine.org/>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Debate-list mailing list
> >> Debate-list at fahamu.org <mailto:Debate-list at fahamu.org>
> >> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> > 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays
> 2000-10' (draft):
> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
> Unions':
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Debate-list mailing list
> > Debate-list at fahamu.org <mailto:Debate-list at fahamu.org>
> > http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Yoshie Furuhashi
> <http://mrzine.org/>
> _______________________________________________
> Debate-list mailing list
> Debate-list at fahamu.org <mailto:Debate-list at fahamu.org>
> http://lists.fahamu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debate-list
>
>
>
>
> --
> *1.* Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements
> <http://www.interfacejournal.net/2011/06/call-for-papers-volume-4-issue-2-for-the-global-emancipation-of-labour-new-movements-and-struggles-around-work-workers-and-precarity/>'!
> *2. Blog:* http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> *3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> 1990s*s
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
>
> *4.* WorkingPaper *2012*: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies'
> <http://www.iisg.nl/publications/respap49.pdf>:
> *5.* Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
> (draft):
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> *6. *Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
> Unions':
> <http://www.unionbook.org/profiles/blogs/peter-waterman-the-second-coming-of-the-wftu-updated>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Debate-list mailing list
> Debate-list at fahamu.org
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