[Debate] (Fwd) Here we go again (Zapiro)

David Everatt David at everatt.co.za
Sun Jul 8 15:06:03 BST 2012 

Can't the two of you take this off-list? I'm busy watching Wimbledon and your to and fro is no different.

Sent from my iPad

On 08 Jul 2012, at 5:52 AM, "peter waterman" <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com<mailto:peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>> wrote:

True, Yoshi, but 'everything' includes your present attitudes which, during that epoch, I largely shared.

Though, with British ex-CP Marxist historian, Edward Thompson, and much of the then New Left, I began to see the problem as being neither simply Imperialist Western nor Anti-Imperialist Soviet but the Cold War for which both were responsible.

Pw

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Yoshie Furuhashi <critical.montages at gmail.com<mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com>> wrote:
Everything reminds you of the Cold War, so it's no surprise.

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 3:18 AM, peter waterman
<peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com<mailto:peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> And the connection between this response to my my previous posting is....?
>
> This reminds me of an exchange between myself and my Soviet colleague at the
> time we were both editors of the monthly of the International Union of
> Students, Prague, 1950s. When I complained about repetition in the magazine,
> he said 'the truth cannot be repeated too often'. Actually it can, and is
> then called a truism - 'a proposition needing no proof or argument'.
>
> pw
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Yoshie Furuhashi
> <critical.montages at gmail.com<mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Frankly, common sense should suffice.  Arming the mujahideen in
>> Afghanistan in the Carter-Reagan era didn't help Afghans except maybe
>> warlords, arms dealers, and the like; Syria would be no different.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 2:51 AM, peter waterman
>> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com<mailto:peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > As usual with Yoshie, she avoids answering a surely reasonable question
>> > and
>> > then accuses the questioner of holding beliefs which he has never
>> > expressed.
>> >
>> > She maybe needs to read not only that German guy but also Orwell and
>> > Gowers.
>> >
>> > Or to perhaps ponder the difference between the China analyses of
>> > Monthly
>> > Review and Simon Leys (pseudonym) at the height of MR Maoism.
>> >
>> > PW
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Yoshie Furuhashi
>> > <critical.montages at gmail.com<mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have yet to hear from you or anyone else here what ethical or
>> >> theoretical framework leads a leftist to believe that giving more
>> >> ammunitions to Syrian and other Arab mujahideen -- against the
>> >> expressed desire of Syrian progressives for a negotiated political
>> >> solution which gives them a better chance than expanding the war would
>> >> -- will lead to "any humane and emancipatory alternative."  Did giving
>> >> a lot of high-tech weapons to mujahideen in Afghanistan lead to a
>> >> "humane and emancipatory alternative" . . . or wars and the rise and
>> >> fall and rise of Taliban?
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 2:19 AM, peter waterman
>> >> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com<mailto:peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> > Kate:
>> >> >
>> >> > A lot us us are not as informed as Yoshie seems to be about Syria or
>> >> > even
>> >> > Libya. But we may be sceptical about or turned off by her shotgun
>> >> > fire
>> >> > of
>> >> > facts or factoids that seem neither to be informed by any theoretical
>> >> > or
>> >> > ethical framework nor lead toward any humane and emancipatory
>> >> > alternative.
>> >> >
>> >> > Pw
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 4:20 AM, Kate Doyle Griffiths-Dingani
>> >> > <kategrif at gmail.com<mailto:kategrif at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Honestly for me, I'm not as informed about facts on the ground in
>> >> >> Syria as yoshie or others who take the opposing view; my global
>> >> >> interpretation of the situation is that if one supports the working
>> >> >> class globally we have to realize that the postcolonial situation
>> >> >> inmany countries differs fundamentally from that facing anticolonial
>> >> >> revolutionaries in the 50s through 90s with the exceptions of the
>> >> >> obvious. Neocolonialism is a real thing but so are oppressive
>> >> >> dictatorial regimes, few of which are fundamentally aniimperialist
>> >> >> much less socialist or even revolutionary. Kneejerk antiimpetialusm
>> >> >> at
>> >> >> all costs ignores workers' reality and working class politics in
>> >> >> many
>> >> >> places; leftists should support antiimperialust opposition to
>> >> >> murderous dictatorial states--otherwise it's just the "enemy of my
>> >> >> enemy" regardless of the effect on workers livilhoods or poltical
>> >> >> expression. What that means in Syria I'm not the best to judge, but
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> appreciate the framework for identifying it that you've laud out.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Jul 7, 2012, at 10:05 PM, Louis Thiemann <kiwiza at gmail.com<mailto:kiwiza at gmail.com>>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > That generalization also doesn't convince me. It would include
>> >> >> > Franco because he was more anti-imperialist than the centre-left
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > centre-right governments that replaced him after a popular
>> >> >> > revolution. I don't see how there is a conclusive amount of
>> >> >> > evidence
>> >> >> > that the Libyan and Syrian people will loose all they won to a few
>> >> >> > hundred jihadists who smuggled themselves into the uprising. The
>> >> >> > FSA
>> >> >> > and MB in general are not such scary people, they seem to
>> >> >> > establish
>> >> >> > themselves as a moderate right, support elections etc.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Anti-US imperialism can't be the only concern.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Possible paths:
>> >> >> > 1. Material support to FSA, revolution wins with high burdens
>> >> >> > 2. No support to FSA, revolution looses, Assad stays or civil war
>> >> >> > 3. No support to FSA, non-violent revolution wins
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You argue that we should put our cards on 3., and what you are
>> >> >> > criticized for is not considering that 2. may well happen instead.
>> >> >> > That's reasonable, or are there other possible paths?
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
>> >> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
>> >> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>> >> > 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/<http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
>> >> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
>> >> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
>> >> > (draft):
>> >> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>> >> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
>> >> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
>> >> > Unions':
>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Yoshie Furuhashi
>> >> <http://mrzine.org/>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
>> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
>> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>> > 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/<http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
>> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
>> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
>> > (draft):
>> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
>> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
>> > Unions':
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Yoshie Furuhashi
>> <http://mrzine.org/>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Debate-list mailing list
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>
>
>
>
> --
> 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/<http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>
> 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10' (draft):
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade   Unions':
>
>
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--
Yoshie Furuhashi
<http://mrzine.org/>
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1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements<http://www.interfacejournal.net/2011/06/call-for-papers-volume-4-issue-2-for-the-global-emancipation-of-labour-new-movements-and-struggles-around-work-workers-and-precarity/>'!
2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-                        1990s s<http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies'<http://www.iisg.nl/publications/respap49.pdf>:
5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10' (draft):
     http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
     http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade   Unions': <http://www.unionbook.org/profiles/blogs/peter-waterman-the-second-coming-of-the-wftu-updated>

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