[Debate] (Fwd) Syrian solidarity: should that include 'intervention' (Pham Binh)

Thu Jul 5 14:07:38 BST 2012

Given their conduct -- "unlawful killings, arbitrary arrests and
detention, torture including to death and forcible displacement
prevails in Libya" (@
<http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE19/013/2012/en/c924167e-b574-4b08-83f1-ede9ba6d2dd7/mde190132012en.pdf>
-- you would be the first to demand that all leftists disown these
allegedly "r-r-r-revolutionary" Libyan and Syrian militiamen _if_ they
were Communists or left nationalists or anti-Zionist Islamists rather
than jihadis backed by imperialists.

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 3:17 AM, peter waterman
<peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
> One has to be impressed by the capacity of Yoshie to
>
> 1) avoid challenges,
>
> 2) respond to such - if and when she does - by posing another question, and
>
> 3) to think that a message the size of a tweet can establish a theoretical
> or moral position of any considerable weight.
>
> One wonders - since I do not recall her ever having revealed this - what she
> has to say about Stalinism, Maoism, the Dynastic Communism of North Korea,
> Pol Pot, and the millions who lost their livelihoods, starved, were
> imprisoned, tortured and killed by these. They were as anti-imperialist as
> she is, even if 'imperialism' was defined so as to exclude their own 'Great
> Nation Chauvinsim' racism, expansionism or military adventurism.
>
> At issue here, as I have previously suggested, is the problem of surpassing
> rather than reproducing - under much r-r-r-revolutionary rhetoric and flags
> - practices of capitalism, imperialism, militarism and even of
> pre-capitalist regimes.
>
> The silence of Yoshie concerning pre-uprising Libya or Syria is due to them
> not having been on her two-dimensional map of the world. They were not on
> mine either but I consider this a matter of shame or at least of
> embarassment. And can at least point to my general support for human rights
> movements worldwide. Given, however, her failure to recognise the gross
> inhumanity of those regimes (and their responsibility for the often brutal
> behaviour of the opposition to them or successor regimes), it is entirely
> reasonable to consider her as complicit with such - as long as they can be
> or could have been considered in some way or in some part
> 'anti-imperialist'.
>
> Pw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi
> <critical.montages at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone still supporting the Libyan & Syrian militiamen _at this late
>> date_, having seen their MO, seems to me to be a proponent of
>> knee-jerk pro-imperialism, putting a plus on them only because
>> imperialists put a plus there.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:11 AM, peter waterman
>> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Actually, Patrick, Stalin's international policies were rather more
>> > complex
>> > than those of Yoshie.
>> >
>> > For example, whilst the Soviet Union was officially identifying itself
>> > with
>> > the anti-fascist Spanish Republic during the Civil War and even sending
>> > military advisors, it was also providing it with World War I weapons and
>> > junk airplanes, and sending KGB agents to support the Communist Party.
>> > (Soviet military with Spanish experience sometimes ended up in the
>> > Gulag,
>> > and Spanish Communists exiled in the Communist countries became
>> > subordinated
>> > to whatever Soviet foreign policy required).
>> >
>> > On the other hand, as you will surely recall, whilst WWII was first
>> > characterised as an inter-imperialist war - wreaking massive damage to
>> > Western CPs and anti-fascist movements - once the Soviet Union was
>> > invaded
>> > (with ease due to Stalin having killed or imprisoned many of his
>> > generals,
>> > and having total trust in his new Nazi ally), Stalin happily sought an
>> > alliance with imperialist Britain, the US, France, and dubbed the war
>> > 'anti-fascist' once again.
>> >
>> > Yoshie does, however, forward a rhetorically revolutionary power
>> > politics,
>> > and does, indeed, turn the imperialist logic on its head. As Marx might
>> > have
>> > said, 'The point is not to reverse power-politics but to surpass it'.
>> >
>> > May I add that whilst I think Pham Binh's critique of rhetorical,
>> > knee-jerk
>> > anti-imperialism is spot on, I would like evidence for most of his
>> > assertions about the 'democratic' or 'revolutionary' nature of both the
>> > protest movements and the successor regime in Libya. What he has done,
>> > however, is to deploy a more dialectical reasoning to counter the
>> > simplistic, mechanical and reductionist logic of Yoshie.
>> >
>> > Let's hope that the exchange is inspired by this.
>> >
>> > Pw
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Patrick Bond <pbond at mail.ngo.za> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 7/4/2012 3:14 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>> >> > Here's what Patrick's and Peter's "Libyan comrades"
>> >>
>> >> Never ever met a Libyan comrade or non-comrade, sorry!
>> >>
>> >> > (to use the term
>> >> > employed by "Pham Binh of Occupy Wall Street, Class War Camp" whose
>> >> > essay Patrick posted here with a note of approval)
>> >>
>> >> Once again, try reading the 'approval' part of the text, not some
>> >> imaginary idea between the lines. My approval was for the strategy of
>> >> solidarity with Syrians that Binh outlined.
>> >>
>> >> Until one has some sort of grounded commitment to the comrades fighting
>> >> in a particular location, what credibility do we have to to do advocacy
>> >> on anyone's behalf there (especially if it's a dictator)? I've asked
>> >> Yoshie about a half-dozen times who the forces are which she would have
>> >> us give solidarity to, in Libya or Syria or anywhere these complicated
>> >> situations arise... and am still awaiting an answer. At least Gilbert
>> >> Achcar could answer that, and was in close touch so knew how to
>> >> articulate the international standpoint of the people he supported.
>> >>
>> >> Until then, the trap Yoshie has fallen into is quite simple, and is
>> >> consistent with Stalin's approach to international politics: wherever
>> >> the West puts a +, she must put a -  ... and political thought ends
>> >> there.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
>> > 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
>> > 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
>> > 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
>> > 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
>> > 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10'
>> > (draft):
>> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>> >      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
>> > 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade
>> > Unions':
>> >
>> >
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Yoshie Furuhashi
>> <http://mrzine.org/>
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>
>
>
>
> --
> 1. Contribute to Journal Special on 'New Worker Movements'!
> 2. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman
> 3. EBook 2011, 'Under, Against, Beyond - Essays 1980s-
> 1990s shttp://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/
> 4. WorkingPaper 2012: 'Emancipatory Labour Studies':
> 5. Draft EBook 2012: 'Recovering Internationalism - Essays 2000-10' (draft):
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82125289/ReCovIntComp-A-2
>      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82129474/ReCovtIntComp-B-2
> 6. Essay 2012: 'The 2nd Coming of the World Federation of Trade   Unions':
>
>
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-- 
Yoshie Furuhashi
<http://mrzine.org/>