[Debate] A Muslim View - Of dictators and liberators

Wed Apr 11 14:29:48 BST 2012

Religious faith is not going to disappear from the polity, much as us
atheists would wish it.  Have to acknowledge principle that trying to banish
religion from politics amounts to discrimination on the grounds of religion.
As much as I dislike the prefix 'post', have to think in terms of post
secularism (not pre-) in which translatability is key - between religious
claims and political rationality and vice-versa, and the substantive
democratic processes that can ensure this.

Really do need, as PW pointed out earlier, to move away from power simply
seen as variations of state power.

Neville 

-----Original Message-----
From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
On Behalf Of Riaz K Tayob
Sent: 11 April 2012 14:13
To: debate-list at fahamu.org
Subject: Re: [Debate] A Muslim View - Of dictators and liberators

On 2012/04/11 04:00 PM, John Williams wrote:
> Riaz, I guess,in this age of globalization, social media connecting 
> most parts of the world -- at least electronically -- what has to be 
> agreed upon is that dictators still rule this world [whether in the
Occident ['west'
> through pseudo forms of 'democracy'] or the Orient [in the name of 
> difference, tradition]. Indeed, when will humankind learn that "Power 
> tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Here I like Frank Herbert's additional line Power corrupts, absolute power
corrupts absolutely + Power becomes irresistible to the corruptible...
> Lord Acton, Letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887". The sooner 
> people can get rid of all sorts of limiting/enslaving ideologies,

are you post ideological or post political...

> especially religion,

Here I am rather instrumentalist. Of the secular persuasion myself in
politics, not personally, I agree. But it will simply not do to let the
conflation of religion and free trade proceed unchallenged - as the MB is
doing in Egypt. What is needed to address this overdetermining factor (free
trade) are authentic muslim opposition to this nonsense.

> the better the chances for the survival of the human species  would be!

There are other views on this and I find the secular blandishments too
sweeping. Religion has not been a dependable ally in emancipation, but it is
not to say it can not be.

And those who pursue secular reason are as prone to error as the religious,
perhaps on different matters. One could even say that the current
post-religious, post-modern/political times we live in are precisely what
secularism has wrought? No I do not expect you to agree with the latter,
just as I cannot agree to the dispensing of religion as a social force - it
is like athletics and dance, one of the primordial things across many
societies and ages...

>    John J Williams
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org 
> [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
> On Behalf Of Riaz K Tayob
> Sent: 11 April 2012 01:02 PM
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and 
> analyses of interest to the independent left in South and Southern 
> Africa
> Subject: Re: [Debate] A Muslim View - Of dictators and liberators
>
> I agree with you on interest analysis, as this would be more rational.
> My reasons for posting this are to open up the views of muslims who 
> hold radical povs in this secular discussion space.
>
> That said, the view of "stooges" is also competent given the 
> overwhelming ire of muslims over these states political positions 
> regarding Palestine and other concerns of Ummah - like the prohibition 
> of foreign non-muslim forces from protecting the Hejaz (aka by its 
> tribal name Saudi Arabia). From this vantage it is hardly rhetoric and 
> invective but a deep seated (and some would say well earned) disdain 
> that these governments have earned...
>
> Riaz
>
> On 2012/04/11 01:53 PM, Ran Greenstein wrote:
>> The most important fallacy of this kind of analysis is inability to 
>> look at political realities without invoking conspiracies: if the 
>> Saudi and Qatari regimes
> align
>> themselves with the US it is because they share interests, not 
>> because the former are stooges of the latter. The same goes for their 
>> relationship with
>> Israel: their
>> interests intersect at some points and diverge at others. A rational 
>> analysis would seek to identify such points and their potential 
>> implications, rather than replace this task with empty rhetoric and 
>> invective
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Riaz K Tayob<riaz.tayob at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> Of dictators and liberators
>>> Zafar Bangash, Reflections
>>>
>>> With notable exceptions, dictators rule much of the Muslim world. 
>>> They
> carry
>>> many fancy titles: kings, amirs, presidents, prime ministers and, of
> course
>>> generals and colonels. What is common between them is that they are 
>>> all subservient to the West even while they terrorize their own people.
>>> The uprisings that erupted in the Muslim East (aka the Middle East) 
>>> more than a year ago have changed the political landscape in radical 
>>> ways. Old equations have been disrupted and Middle Eastern tyrants 
>>> have been forced
> to
>>> adopt a new language and style even as they continue to implement 
>>> old policies hoping to ride out the storm. They have also been 
>>> exposed in
> ways
>>> they did not wish to reveal for fear of antagonizing their people
> further.
>>> Thus, while it was always known that the tribal and family-run 
>>> regimes
> are
>>> subservient to the US, their links with the Zionist State were a 
>>> closely guarded secret. Barring three countries - Turkey, Egypt and 
>>> Jordan - that have had open relations with Zionist Israel, others 
>>> have been coy about these links. The Islamic Awakening sweeping the 
>>> region has forced these regimes to come out of purdah. Two regimes 
>>> in particular, Saudi Arabia
> and
>>> Qatar, both family-run fiefdoms stand utterly exposed as not only
> American
>>> but Zionist stooges.
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