No subject
Sat Aug 27 20:39:36 BST 2011
intervention will be become harder and harder. Unless you are interested in
being "right", and in the absence of a counterfactual, the very issues that
Yoshie raises will HAVE to be dealt with.
On 2011/08/29 07:04 PM, Neville Adams wrote:
My question was about the circumstances when such an intervention would be
unacceptable. You've mithered on quite a bit, throwing in a few red
herrings, some unccooked, about the lack of a case from what you label the
'interventionists'. I can see the common cause with Yoshie who offers a
reductive analysis par excellence. Apart from the lack of an adequate
evaluative and action guiding framework , what, exactly, is your case for
non-intervention?
From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
On Behalf Of Riaz K Tayob
Sent: 29 August 2011 13:08
To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and analyses
of interest to the independent left in South and Southern Africa
Subject: Re: [Debate] (Fwd) Is Qaddafi's overthrow a blow or a boon? (Pham
Binh)
To answer your question more directly... assuming that there are adequate
safeguards, intervention is acceptable when it makes common cause with a)
development aspirations of the people, 2) the
------=_NextPart_000_0102_01CC6732.039EDB70
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 =
(filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Cambria;
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
h1
{mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 1 Char";
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:24.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;
font-weight:bold;}
h2
{mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 2 Char";
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:18.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;
font-weight:bold;}
h3
{mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 3 Char";
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;
font-weight:bold;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
span.Heading1Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 1 Char";
mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 1";
font-family:"Cambria","serif";
color:#365F91;
font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading2Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 2 Char";
mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 2";
font-family:"Cambria","serif";
color:#4F81BD;
font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading3Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 3 Char";
mso-style-priority:9;
mso-style-link:"Heading 3";
font-family:"Cambria","serif";
color:#4F81BD;
font-weight:bold;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle23
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>This is not about being ‘right’ and the issues raised by =
Yoshie are ones force fed through a particular preferred teleology =
which is not being matched by reality, and which, in certain =
cases, unfortunately, is being presented in an unnecessary racialised =
and islamophobic manner. Intervention or not, =
overthrowing the Gaddafi regime was always going to present a =
multi-faceted scenario of how to move beyond that, which is where the =
Libyan people are now. What are the naysayers and =
doom-mongers going to do? Continue to wag the finger from afar =
extracting every ounce of ‘politically correct’ =
schadenfrude as the changes that unfurl throw up ones that are =
questionable? Zizek has a term for these symptoms, =
describing this as the “comfortable position of =
resistance.” There are some, on the left, prone to dwelling =
on failures because doing so allows myths to be generated about what =
would have happened if they succeeded. These failures allow =
some on the left to maintain a “safe moralistic position” =
because their failures mean that they are never in power, or truly =
tested by action. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Neville<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org =
[mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Riaz K =
Tayob<br><b>Sent:</b> 29 August 2011 19:07<br><b>To:</b> Debate is a =
listserve that attempts to promote information and analyses of interest =
to the independent left in South and Southern Africa<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [Debate] (Fwd) Is Qaddafi's overthrow a blow or a boon? (Pham =
Binh)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The case for =
non-intervention, barring hamstrung international law, is that there is =
no 1) reason for compliance in other like cases (uniqueness is a safe =
haven), 2) the nature of the democratic state is largely being defined =
by those with the force to enforce it (a Darwinism of =
sorts).<br><br>From what is happening, I anticipate that sustaining the =
case for intervention will be become harder and harder. Unless you are =
interested in being "right", and in the absence of a =
counterfactual, the very issues that Yoshie raises will HAVE to be dealt =
with. <br><br><br><br><br><br>On 2011/08/29 07:04 PM, Neville Adams =
wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>My question was about the circumstances when such an intervention =
would be unacceptable. You’ve mithered on quite a bit, =
throwing in a few red herrings, some unccooked, about the lack of a case =
from what you label the ‘interventionists’. I =
can see the common cause with Yoshie who offers a =
reductive analysis par excellence. Apart from the lack of an =
adequate evaluative and action guiding framework , what, exactly, is =
your case for non-intervention?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org">debate-list-bounces at fahamu=
.org</a> [<a =
href=3D"mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org">mailto:debate-list-bounces=
@fahamu.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Riaz K Tayob<br><b>Sent:</b> 29 =
August 2011 13:08<br><b>To:</b> Debate is a listserve that attempts to =
promote information and analyses of interest to the independent left in =
South and Southern Africa<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Debate] (Fwd) Is =
Qaddafi's overthrow a blow or a boon? (Pham =
Binh)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To answer =
your question more directly... assuming that there are adequate =
safeguards, intervention is acceptable when it makes common cause with =
a) development aspirations of the people, 2) the =
<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0102_01CC6732.039EDB70--
More information about the Debate-list
mailing list