[Debate] Trita Parsi on Libya, Syria, and Iran

Tue Aug 30 16:07:24 BST 2011

I see, but a lot of people here are published writers, writing for
left-wing media among other media, and a lot of things re-posted here
come from left-wing media among other media, so there's a great deal
of overlap.  Here on Debate and elsewhere in left-wing media, there
just wasn't much interest in Libya at all till this year, to take just
one example again among the ones I have mentioned.  And it's not as if
the character of Gaddafi's regime changed dramatically from last year
to this year all of a sudden deserving to be overthrown this year "at
(almost) any cost," even with the help of NATO, Gulf Arab Royalty,
pro-Qaeda Islamists, and so on.  The change in left-wing perception
and representation, displayed here and elsewhere, was wholly dictated
by MSM, imho.

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Mandi Smallhorne
<mandiwrite at icon.co.za> wrote:
> You did not say left-wing media, you said " I don't recall *anyone here* agitating for an overthrow of the Gaddafi
> regime before this year", and that's what I was responding to.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org] On Behalf Of Yoshie Furuhashi
> Sent: 30 August 2011 04:50 PM
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and analyses of interest to the independent left in South and Southern Africa
> Subject: Re: [Debate] Trita Parsi on Libya, Syria, and Iran
>
> There are such things as left-wing media, put out by various political
> parties and independents.  Left-wing media should do their job, not
> just follow MSM.
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Mandi Smallhorne
> <mandiwrite at icon.co.za> wrote:
>> Yes - calling it the mass media is of course one way of putting it down. The media is doing its job when it informs us about issues around the world. I for one work for a living and do not have the time to keep myself informed about each and every repressive regime around the planet sans media assistance - nor to agitate for it to be overthrown (unlike a certain Debate member, who I happened to notice sent 61 posts in the space of less than 24 hours between Friday and Saturday last week! Excluding a few hours sleep, that's more than 3 posts an hour, wow!) What is expected of 'the left' - to throw up jobs, families and all in order to keep pace with each and every injustice in the world? Gosh.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org] On Behalf Of Peter Waterman
>> Sent: 30 August 2011 04:27 PM
>> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and analyses of interest to the independent left in South and Southern Africa
>> Subject: Re: [Debate] Trita Parsi on Libya, Syria, and Iran
>>
>> Is that meant to be a criticism, Yoshie, or, in part at least, also a
>> self criticism?
>>
>> Pw
>>
>> PS. Pavolvian responses can be negative as well as positive. Think about it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30-8-2011 15:10, Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>>> I don't recall anyone here agitating for an overthrow of the Gaddafi
>>> regime before this year, or agitating with equal vigor for an
>>> overthrow of equally repressive regimes elsewhere this year for that
>>> matter.  I conclude that left-wing interventionists are not unlike
>>> Pavlov's dogs: they respond to mass media's cues regarding who should
>>> be Enemy No. 1, who are deserving victims, etc. all too well.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 2:53 AM, Peter Waterman
>>> <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> Yoshie
>>>>
>>>> You have already reduced the complex and inevitably disputed Libyan
>>>> uprising into a stick with which to beat that part (majority? minority?)
>>>> of the international Left that does not agree with you.
>>>>
>>>> That the international Left is weak, disoriented and in disarray, and
>>>> has few if any instruments with which to influence the outcome in one
>>>> way or another, seems to me hardly a matter for schadenfreude (pleasure
>>>> in the discomfort or pain of others).
>>>>
>>>> The tone of high revolutionary rectitude on your part would be justified
>>>> if you could demonstrate your concern over - say - the last 10 years for
>>>> Libyan and non-Libyan Blacks, Libyan women, Libyan immigrant workers,
>>>> imprisoned and tortured Libyans. Indeed, simply for all or any Libyans
>>>> living for 40 years under a regime of such a repressive, militaristic
>>>> and arbitrary nature that it calls up comparison with Stalin's Russia
>>>> and Hitler's Germany.
>>>>
>>>> It seems, however, that your sympathy with the repressed, exploited,
>>>> discriminated and manipulated is only evidenced when and where
>>>> imperialism is active, or can be invoked as the primary issue at stake.
>>>>
>>>> Pw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 30-8-2011 3:15, Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>>>>> The damage already done by the interventionists can't be undone, but
>>>>> the interventionists should do their share to prevent further damage
>>>>> by putting public pressures on the NATO and other powers to withdraw
>>>>> their support for the Libyan rebels.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Riaz K Tayob<riaz.tayob at gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>>>> The issue is one of precedent. On values, there is agreement. On actions
>>>>>> to be undertaken, there is difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That guidance from "debate" is influential on the issue is neither here
>>>>>> nor there. We are discussing the merits of the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why were interventionists so gung ho as not to put forward arguments to
>>>>>> limit rights abuses? Perhaps that is because Q ought to have been taken
>>>>>> out by any means necessary?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And why was there not criticism of the issues related to regime change?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As innovative as these arguments are, and that I conceded right from the
>>>>>> beginning (there is a need for idealism and also looking anew at
>>>>>> situations and issues), the problem that neohumanitarians face is how to
>>>>>> address the issues of definition (grounds for intervention), the
>>>>>> "obligation" for future "compliance" (and uniqueness is no defence,
>>>>>> irrespective of the unimportance of the debate list) and the tricky
>>>>>> 'Bahrain problem', how to deal with cries for help from citizens subject
>>>>>> to the North darling despots or tyrannies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unless these issues are ALSO addressed, the cogency of the argument
>>>>>> suffers. I for one would not like to see a Rwanda nor the continuation
>>>>>> of Gaza. Legitimacy and effectiveness are twin strands that run through
>>>>>> international law on these issues. Even if effectiveness is won by the
>>>>>> neohumanitarians on this specific case, legitimacy is lacking. By self
>>>>>> admission, the issue of protecting civilians (ostensibly with precision
>>>>>> bombing) morphed into a case of regime change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me, as stated before, when common cause is made with Imperialism,
>>>>>> the bar is set very high.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Riaz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Common cause with Imperial interests, in my book, needs to be made
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2011/08/29 08:35 PM, Ran Greenstein wrote:
>>>>>>> A large part of this exchange is bogus: most people on this list, and
>>>>>>> most of those outside of it who belong to the left, supported the
>>>>>>> imposition of a no-fly zone to prevent the regime forces from
>>>>>>> massacring the people of Benghazi (a real threat at the time).
>>>>>>> Neitherothing more nor less. No-one has endorsed any attacks on
>>>>>>> civilians (black or otherwise). In any event, the extent to which the
>>>>>>> rebels/Nato forces used the Debate list as a guideline in conducting
>>>>>>> the war is fairly limited
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi
>>>>>>> <critical.montages at gmail.com>    �wrote:
>>>>>>>> Surely you'd have to be pro-Black Libyan people, too, to be truly
>>>>>>>> pro-Libyan people since quite a few Libyans are Black. �As for
>>>>>>>> justice, in the near future, there's no one on the ground who will
>>>>>>>> bring to justice the armed rebels rounding up Black men and lynching
>>>>>>>> and executing some of them. �In the situation unfolding there now,
>>>>>>>> those armed rebels are de facto the law.
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>
>
> --
> Yoshie Furuhashi
> <http://mrzine.org/>
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-- 
Yoshie Furuhashi
<http://mrzine.org/>