[Debate] (Fwd) Is Qaddafi's overthrow a blow or a boon? (Pham Binh)
critical.montages at gmail.com
Mon Aug 29 13:36:40 BST 2011
Considering what the Libyan rebels are doing to Black Libyans and
migrant workers, don't you think it is particularly inappropriate to
compare them to the ANC?
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Neville Adams <nada01 at claranet.co.uk> wrote:
> There you go again, Riaz, exercising a condemnatory hubris through
> reductive labelling – ‘interventionists, ‘neo-humanitarians’, and so
> forth. Having read your responses so far to the Libyan issue, I am only
> too aware of ‘the complexity of the paranoid politics that foreign
> interference breeds in local politics.’ I seem to recall a vigorous call
> for foreign intervention of differing sorts – disinvestment, boycotts etc .
> – against apartheid South Africa. Was there not military intervention by
> proxy on the part of the USSR and its satellites through the arming and
> training of the ANC? In the case of Zimbabwe, I remember the UK being
> caricatured – quite rightly - as a toothless old lion for not using brute
> force to end the UDI. In the history of liberation struggles, it would
> appear then that some of those struggling against oppressive regimes
> actively sought supporting intervention by others. So, given the scenario
> of the oppressed rising up and calling for help, under what circumstances
> would such a type of intervention be unacceptable?
> From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
> On Behalf Of Riaz K Tayob
> Sent: 28 August 2011 09:44
> To: pbond at mail.ngo.za; Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote
> information and analyses of interest to the independent left in South and
> Southern Africa
> Subject: Re: [Debate] (Fwd) Is Qaddafi's overthrow a blow or a boon? (Pham
> Sure this makes sense, but has not been much in evidence IMHO on this list.
> Problem is that some of the Libya interventionists on this list have not
> being willing to embrace the complexity of the paranoid politics that
> foreign interference breeds in local politics... and this relates to all
> sorts of interference, from World Bank loans and neo-liberalism through to
> betting on one or other candidate.
> To me it seems that this would mean eschewing the simplicity of anti-statism
> in third countries with a more sophisticated, but no less critical, position
> (many third world elites do aspire to be part of the globalised elite). And
> this is not to be reductionistic in critique - which goes to the heart of my
> characterisation of interventionists and the shortcomings in arguments in
> support of the intervention.
> If one adds Binh's point to the equation one can see how foreign forces
> undermined progressive movements from Egypt to Libya. This was the case even
> in countries where it is reasonably foreseeable that the sceptre of foreign
> involvement would haunt and undermine the progressive movements. In some
> places there is the implicit view that international solidarity is the
> monopoly of the West, which is not acceptable.
> If the quote you like from Binh is viewed as valid, it should not be limited
> to peoples revolutions only. One would then also have to look at issues like
> the Meghrahi case, which as an indictment of the Collective North of an
> order of magnitude that is not even permitted public gaze, not even by
> neohumanitarian interventionists. But then the challenge is how does one
> integrate this level of sophisticated brutality by the Collective North into
> the assessments which are further complicated by Q's idiotic and brutal
> On 2011/08/28 11:16 AM, Patrick Bond wrote:
> (This makes sense to me: "We in the West need to do what we can to keep the
> hands of our rulers off of other people’s revolutions, which means taking a
> stand against imperialist intervention even when it is disguised as aid to a
> beleaguered rebellion.")
> August 27, 2011
> Qaddafi’s Overthrow: a “Blow to the Arab Spring”?
> By Pham Binh
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