[Debate] Battles Grip Tripoli, Coastal Cities

[Neville Adams]

Whether or not they were a minority then, or now, is debatable.  However,
how precisely were they going to ask the rest of the country without the
process of 'the request' actually getting them kileed by th regime?

-----Original Message-----
From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
On Behalf Of Yoshie Furuhashi
Sent: 27 August 2011 10:09
To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and analyses
of interest to the independent left in South and Southern Africa
Subject: Re: [Debate] Battles Grip Tripoli, Coastal Cities

What if a minority of the population, in this case the rebels in Libya,
request a foreign military intervention in their country, without asking the
majority of their countrywomen and men?  Is it not anti-democratic?

On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 5:06 AM, Neville Adams <nada01 at claranet.co.uk>
wrote:
> And a distinction has to be made between situations where those 
> denizens actually request external help, and those where the 
> intervention is imposed, as in Iraq and Afghanistan.   And, as counter 
> to the Manichean world some of us appear to inhabit, because that 
> help, in the former case is provided by the West, does not 
> automatically make that imperialist.   Was boycotting South African goods
not so long ago imperialist?
>
>
>
> From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org 
> [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
> On Behalf Of Riaz K Tayob
> Sent: 27 August 2011 08:04
>
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and 
> analyses of interest to the independent left in South and Southern 
> Africa
> Subject: Re: [Debate] Battles Grip Tripoli, Coastal Cities
>
>
>
> In my book, neohumanitarian - one who makes the case for intervention 
> not only on classical humanitarian grounds but also upon claims 
> similar to the Responsibility to Protect based primarily on claims of 
> uniqueness of circumstances justifying intervention where the holders 
> of the rights receive a particular set of reduced rights not the full 
> rights accorded to citizens due to the nature of the intervention...
>
>
> On 2011/08/27 10:24 AM, Neville Adams wrote:
>
> What the hell is a ‘neohumanitarian’, as opposed, say to your inferred 
> paleo-humanitarian?
>
>
>
> From: debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org 
> [mailto:debate-list-bounces at fahamu.org]
> On Behalf Of Riaz K Tayob
> Sent: 27 August 2011 07:13
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and 
> analyses of interest to the independent left in South and Southern 
> Africa
> Subject: Re: [Debate] Battles Grip Tripoli, Coastal Cities
>
>
>
> I would be very interested in your definition of megalomaniac and who 
> would be on that list.
>
> "Uniqueness" and terms like this are difficult to separate from ones 
> politics or ontology.
>
> Yoshie at least is clear, and reasonably predictable. 
> Neohumanitarians, a diverse lot for sure, are less so.
>
> On 2011/08/27 12:26 AM, Devan Pillay wrote:
>
> Because the Great Leader was and probably still is not interested in 
> negotiation (like Hitler or any other meglomaniac who feels they have 
> the divine right to rule).
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Yoshie Furuhashi [mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com]
>
> Sent: Fri 26/08/2011 23:24
>
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and 
> analyses ofinterest to the independent left in South and Southern 
> Africa
>
> Subject: Re: [Debate] Battles Grip Tripoli, Coastal Cities
>
>
>
> Why do you think that a ceasefire and mediated negotiations for
>
> democratic transitions would have resulted in the status quo ante?
>
> Why do you think that the rebels could not have won, putting Gaddafi
>
> into retirement, via that route?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Devan Pillay 
> <Devan.Pillay at wits.ac.za>
> wrote:
>
> In other words - the status quo (ante) - as I've said before.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Yoshie Furuhashi [mailto:critical.montages at gmail.com]
>
> Sent: Fri 26/08/2011 23:17
>
> To: Debate is a listserve that attempts to promote information and 
> analyses ofinterest to the independent left in South and Southern 
> Africa
>
> Subject: Re: [Debate] Battles Grip Tripoli, Coastal Cities
>
>
>
> No, that's not what I have been saying.  It's clear that the rebels do
>
> have a considerable base of support in Benghazi at least and probably
>
> also in the rest of eastern Libya.  You can see that in their videos
>
> of mass rallies and so on.  It's in the rest of the country where they
>
> have little support, which leads to the kind of behavior reported on
>
> by the media, because they are trying to impose their will by force.
>
> Ditto for the regime.  The regime may not have been unpopular in all
>
> of Libya, but it was certainly unpopular in Benghazi and in a lot of
>
> other places in the east, which led to the uprising and bloody
>
> repression by the regime.  In a situation like this, the correct
>
> position is one put forward by the AU, Latin American socialists,
>
> etc., backed by Russia and China: ceasefire and mediated negotiations
>
> for democratic transition.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Doug Henwood <dhenwood at panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Aug 26, 2011, at 5:00 PM, Yoshie Furuhashi wrote:
>
>
>
> Let me ask you: do you feel like visiting Libya now and joining the
>
> rebels to celebrate their "victory"?
>
>
>
> Of course not. It seems like rather a hellhole now. Really, what 
> you're saying is, Libya should have stuck with Q because it'd be more 
> stable. But the battle against Q arose amidst all the other agitation 
> in the neighborhood. There seems to be some popular cheer that he's
probably done.
>
>
>
> Doug
>
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> --
>
> Yoshie Furuhashi
>
> <http://mrzine.org/>
>
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--
Yoshie Furuhashi
<http://mrzine.org/>
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