[DEBATE] : (Fwd) Zimbabweans in Alex face xenophobia: read itandweep
Dominic Tweedie
dominic.tweedie at gmail.com
Tue May 13 14:21:42 BST 2008
Let's all pull our heads out of our arses and meet at Library Gardens on
Saturday morning and start making some history of our own, then.
Domza "Death-of-the-Subject-Defied" Bloviator VC
2008/5/13 David Everatt <bigmouth at iafrica.com>:
> Why not read the content? You're just drawing little word pictures and
> hoping everyone thinks you're clever.
>
> The email points out that we have been doing this for years, tracking the
> same item since about 1992, as have a host of researchers. That's called
> historical - what it doesn't do is try to squeeze people into nice little
> boxes like "good working people who wouldn't ever bee racist" or "nasty
> pro-Mugabe baddies who deserve a spanking". And who is 'we' - the
> progressive movement, probably, but that is up for debate, given those
> people who would include themselves in such a 'we'. The mail also points out
> your glorified bollocks about how internationalised our working class is,
> and how they couldn't possibly do such nasty things, and how this is wishful
> thinking compared with primary data from those very people - not these
> little artifices you pull out of the nether region efflux to try and blame
> this or that coterie. If you'd occasionally pull your head out of your arse
> and engage with shit (beat that for a circular motion) it may actually
> benefit you.
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________
>
> David Everatt
>
> Strategy & Tactics (Johannesburg)
>
> www.s-and-t.co.za
>
>
>
> Dominic Tweedie wrote:
>
> > Yes, my Tower, but I did not say that it is not possible to learn
> > anything from research, or even from a common-or-garden survey. Of course it
> > is possible to do that.
> > The mistake you are making is to discount a historical understanding
> > with selected empirical facts, whereas you should be moving in the opposite
> > direction, i.e. from the abstract to the concrete. You quoted some vox pop
> > as if that were sufficient to sweep away all other facts and considerations.
> > Not good enough IMHO.
> > Yours in struggle,
> > Domza "Humble Opinion" Rastaman VC
> >
> > 2008/5/13 David Everatt <bigmouth at iafrica.com <mailto:
> > bigmouth at iafrica.com>>:
> >
> > And there I was thinking you may actually engage in a discussion
> > about the substance of the issue, and open your mind (laughter
> > offstage) to the fact that research - not a survey, by the way -
> > can teach you things you don't know, or make you consider new
> > things. How ineffably silly of me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________
> >
> > David Everatt
> >
> > Strategy & Tactics (Johannesburg)
> >
> > www.s-and-t.co.za <http://www.s-and-t.co.za/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dominic Tweedie wrote:
> >
> > Hi David,
> >
> > Funny you should use the phrase "deus ex machina" because from
> > my way of
> > looking at it, as I was saying to somebody just a few minutes
> > before your
> > e-mail popped in, the phrase "deus ex machina" is exactly
> > appropriate to
> > allegedly spontaneous effects and sentiments that have a "a
> > life of their
> > own" or something like that.
> >
> > This is not an inchoate society whose social shape must be
> > devined from
> > surveys. It is a society with a living history. It is a
> > society that is
> > organised. It is a society that like all other societies,
> > lives in an
> > interplay between the individual and the general, or otherwise
> > between
> > organised leadership and organised mass.
> >
> > Who, after all, is the "we" in the sentence "If we want to
> > deal with it,
> > then we should address the issue head on... &c"?
> >
> > History is not in the past. You, David, can only see the
> > ineffable "we" as a
> > historical agent. The suggestion that there are plural agents
> > is in your
> > view a conspiracy theory. That is absurd.
> >
> > I think that with your surveys, and like all surveyors tend to
> > do, you have
> > got into a muddle between your subjects and your objects.
> >
> > It's "all to play for" on Saturday.
> >
> > Yours in struggle,
> >
> > Rasta Domza Love-Music-Hate-Racism VC
> >
> > 2008/5/13 David Everatt <bigmouth at iafrica.com
> > <mailto:bigmouth at iafrica.com>>:
> >
> >
> >
> > We're busy researching the political mood, and I can
> > assure you that
> > anti-'foreigner' sentiments have never been as high, and
> > have a life and a
> > coverage far in excess of anything that could be laid at
> > the door of
> > conspiracy theories (however much we all love them).
> > Xenophobia has gone
> > from an issue that was always around (emerged pre-1994) to
> > being the first
> > mention when we ask people - including Alex respondents -
> > what their main
> > problems are, both locally and more broadly. With an
> > intensity and an
> > aggression not seen before. And it is true right across
> > Gauteng, and true
> > across races, though strongest among Africans. It knocks
> > crime and jobs off
> > top spot - though they're linked, since 'foreigners' are
> > blamed for causing
> > crime and for taking jobs/houses/grants/etc. If we want to
> > deal with it,
> > then we should address the issue head on and not try find
> > deus ex machina
> > who can be blamed - it is (in the favourite language of
> > the ruling party)
> > "our people" where the problem is to be found.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________
> >
> > David Everatt
> >
> > Strategy & Tactics (Johannesburg)
> >
> > www.s-and-t.co.za <http://www.s-and-t.co.za/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dominic Tweedie wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear Russell,
> >
> > The detail I have offered is that the sudden attack on
> > some Zimbabweans
> > in
> > Alex is out of keeping with the present political lie
> > of the land in
> > that
> > area, which happens to be on the other side of the
> > Jukskei River valley
> > from
> > where I live. It is part of the same ANC Zone and the
> > same SACP
> > District.
> >
> > I have also been reading and listening widely. It is
> > true that I cannot
> > name
> > all the names of the cross-border black bourgeoisie,
> > although I could
> > name a
> > few significant ones if I wanted to. Yet I am quite
> > sure that the
> > currently
> > common rhetoric of "anti-Imperialism" disguises
> > something completely
> > different and altogether very nasty, in many cases,
> > and that it consists
> > of
> > South Africans in concert with Zimbabweans. Naturally
> > it includes Thabo
> > Mbeki but it is a mistake to lay it all at his door.
> > Like Mugabe, Mbeki
> > is a
> > representative, and not a lone ranger. It is a "one of
> > us"-type
> > situation,
> > like the milieu around Margaret Thatcher a couple of
> > decades ago. There
> > is
> > group identity. They know who they are.
> >
> > I could likewise give a litany of anti-working-class
> > episodes in the
> > recent history of the Zimbabwe struggle but I won't
> > for the moment.
> > Suffice
> > it to say that today's editorial in the Business Day
> > does not come from
> > out
> > of the blue. There is an irrational fear, in more than
> > one quarter, of a
> > working-class-led victory in Zimbabwe. This is fact
> > from my point of
> > view.
> >
> > You can judge it how you like, but I am myself trying
> > to move away from
> > sociological generalisations about "numerous
> > elements". I am talking
> > about
> > identifiable individuals and real organisations.
> >
> > I hope you read the City Press.
> >
> > I hope you won't mind me sending this to the list. I
> > am keen to see if
> > others notice what I notice.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Domza "Blowhard Bloviator" Rasta, VC
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/5/13 grinker at mweb.co.za
> > <mailto:grinker at mweb.co.za> <grinker at mweb.co.za
> > <mailto:grinker at mweb.co.za>>:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope it's as you say Dom. Anything is 'entirely
> > possible', but you
> > don't offer any further detail to back up your Zim
> > diversion
> > conspiracy
> > theory.
> >
> > Sadly there are numerous backward and desperate
> > elements open to this
> > sort
> > of thing and outside the influence of any
> > organised or class conscious
> > milieu. More likely people were egged on by
> > unscrupulous local small
> > business types eager to remove some competitors.
> > This has often been
> > the
> > pattern in the Eastern Cape.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ------
> > *From:*Dominic Tweedie
> > *Sent:*Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59
> > *To:*debate: SA discussion list
> > debate at debate.kabissa.org
> > <mailto:debate at debate.kabissa.org>;
> > *Subject:*Re: [DEBATE] : (Fwd) Zimbabweans in Alex
> > face xenophobia:
> > read
> > itandweep
> >
> > Only half true, Russell, if that.
> >
> > The organised working class in South Africa has
> > always included a very
> > high proportion of migrants, has often been led by
> > them from the time
> > of Clemens Kadalie and before that, and is
> > invariably explicitly solid
> > with workers on an international basis. This is a
> > very mature and
> > internationalist working class.
> >
> > It is entirely possible that the pogrom in Alex
> > was a Lhasa-style
> > orchestrated effort, of which Alex in particular
> > has a long history,
> > including the hostel-based "rattonades" of the
> > 1990s and many
> > subsequent police actions. I have lived in the
> > neighbourhood of Alex
> > since the early 1990s and can see it from my
> > house. This latest affair
> > is not in keeping with the current dominant
> > political structure of the
> > area. I smell a rattonade. There is a lobby in SA
> > of bourgeois/elite
> > characters who have links with Zanu-PF. I would
> > look there first for
> > an explanation of these events. Note that people
> > are well aware that
> > there are planned working-class-led demonstrations
> > in solidarity with
> > Zimbabwe throughout South Africa on Saturday.
> > Please support these
> > demos to the utmost. Here are the details for the
> > Johannesburg demo:
> >
> >
> > Civil society mobilisation on Zimbabwe and Prices
> >
> >
> > March Details for Gauteng:
> >
> > Date: 17 May 2008
> >
> > Time: 09h00 onwards
> >
> > Assemble: Library Gardens, Johannesburg
> >
> >
> > March route:
> >
> > Along Market Street, turn left up Eloff
> >
> > First stop Checkers, between Pritchard and President.
> >
> > Back along Bree Street, turn right at Rissik
> >
> > Second Stop Eskom, Braamfontein
> >
> > Back down Harrison Street
> >
> > Third stop Home Affairs
> >
> >
> > Based on the best information available at 10h00,
> > 13 May 2008
> >
> >
> > 2008/5/13 grinker at mweb.co.za
> > <mailto:grinker at mweb.co.za> :
> > > One of the more noteworthy responses on SAFM was
> > the concern
> > expressed
> > by one of their pundits that local political
> > leadership (read ANC) are
> > losing control of their base. What will of course
> > never be said is
> > that
> > these pogroms are a consequence of the
> > devasatation of working class
> > communities caused by the glorious free market -
> > the pitting of each
> > against
> > each in a desperate struggle to survive. Where
> > there is scarcity you
> > really
> > do get all the old crap.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ------
> > From:Patrick Bond
> > Sent:Tuesday, May 13, 2008 07:18
> > To:debate at vmc08.mweb.co.za:SA discussion list
> > debate at lists.kabissa.org
> > <mailto:debate at lists.kabissa.org>;
> >
> >
> >
> > zimbabwe-fight-on-dont-mourn at googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:zimbabwe-fight-on-dont-mourn at googlegroups.com>;
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject:[DEBATE] : (Fwd) Zimbabweans in Alex
> > face xenophobia: read
> > it
> >
> >
> >
> > andweep
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > TheTimes.co.za <http://thetimes.co.za/> <
> > http://thetimes.co.za/>
> > <http://thetimes.co.za/> <http://thetimes.co.za/>
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this the new SA?
> > Mazola Molefe, Nkululeko Ncana, Borrie la
> > Grange, Werner Swart and
> > Thabo
> > Mkhize Published:May 13, 2008
> >
> > REINFORCEMENTS: Police respond to the attacks
> > on foreigners Picture:
> > THYS DULLAART
> >
> > TREATED LIKE AN ANIMAL: The body of a man shot
> > early yesterday
> > Picture:
> > HALDEN KROG
> >
> > SHEER TERROR: Yvonne Ndlovu was beaten in
> > Alexandra township
> > yesterday
> > for being Zimbabwean. As she walked bleeding
> > to a phone booth, women
> > shouted at her to go home Picture: HALDEN KROG
> >
> > The new SA: No foreigners allowed?
> >
> > Four women mocked the bloodied Ndlovu, telling
> > her to go home
> >
> > Related Content
> > # Mobs turn on foreigners
> >
> > Locals daub names on homes to avoid mobs
> > mistaking them for
> > foreigners
> >
> > Two people were killed and more than 40
> > injured as Johannesburg’s
> > Alexandra township exploded in an orgy of
> > xenophobic violence in the
> > past two days.
> >
> > # Mobs turn on foreigners
> >
> > The shocking violence is the latest in a spate
> > of attacks on
> > foreigners
> > across the country.
> >
> > Last night, the Johannesburg City Council said
> > those responsible for
> > the
> > attacks were sowing seeds of division “not
> > very different
> > from our
> > racist apartheid past†.
> >
> > The violence in Alexandra started on Sunday
> > evening when an enraged
> > mob
> > descended on a hostel in London Road,
> > targeting foreigners, mainly
> > from
> > Zimbabwe. They beat the immigrants, forced
> > them from their rooms and
> > shot dead two men, one a South African who
> > refused to participate in
> > the
> > attacks.
> >
> > Police spokeswoman Neria Malefetse told The
> > Times two women were
> > raped
> > during the raids.
> >
> > Yesterday evening, scores of immigrants were
> > fleeing the area under
> > the
> > protection of police. The Alexandra police
> > station resembled a
> > makeshift
> > refugee camp. And late last night, Malefetse
> > said: “People
> > are still
> > walking into the police station with their
> > children and some of
> > their
> > belongings. They feel a lot safer here; the
> > situation is still
> > tense.â€
> >
> > About 30 people were arrested, and police were
> > looking for several
> > other
> > suspects.
> >
> > Local businesses donated food and blankets to
> > the refugees.
> >
> > It remains unclear what ignited the powder keg
> > of xenophobia in the
> > area, but residents yesterday blamed foreign
> > nationals for a spate
> > of
> > robberies and violent crime.
> >
> > Loren Landau, director of the Forced Migration
> > Studies Programme at
> > Wits
> > University, said xenophobic attacks were
> > becoming increasingly
> > frequent
> > â€" against the backdrop of worsening social
> > and economic pressures
> >
> >
> >
> > faced
> >
> >
> >
> > by poor South Africans.
> >
> > “These are tumultuous times,†she said.
> > “There is a lot of
> >
> >
> >
> > uncertainty
> >
> >
> >
> > and disillusionment among South Africans,
> > coupled with increases in
> > food, fuel and electricity prices ... â€
> >
> > She said most illegal immigrants moved into
> > empoverished
> > neighbourhoods
> > and informal settlements.
> >
> > ‘South Africans were promised some sort of
> > rebirth after 1994 and
> > they
> > are still waiting for the benefits. They now
> > blame foreigners
> > for their
> > frustrated dreams,†Landau said.
> >
> > “The poor feel marginalised, neglected and
> > worse off than before.
> > In
> >
> >
> >
> > the
> >
> >
> >
> > absence of the government addressing their
> > legitimate concerns, they
> > are
> > looking for scapegoats.â€
> >
> > Jack Redden, spokesman for the UN High
> > Commissioner for Refugees,
> > said
> > the government needed a robust, short-term
> > response to the attacks.
> >
> > “You can’t have people going around
> > attacking others and burning
> >
> >
> >
> > down
> >
> >
> >
> > their homes, regardless of whether they are
> > local or foreign. The
> > immediate need is for better policing and
> > prosecution. The law must
> > be
> > enforced.â€
> >
> > He said although there are about 40000
> > recognised refugees and
> > asylum
> > seekers in South Africa, exact figures are
> > unknown because many
> > foreigners are economic migrants from
> > countries such as Zimbabwe.
> >
> > “South African policy also has a role to
> > play, as refugees are not
> > isolated in refugee camps like in other
> > countries. Here, they mix
> > with
> > the locals and seek work opportunities,â€
> > Redden said.
> >
> > The City of Johannesburg last night issued a
> > statement condemning
> > the
> > attacks: “For years we have stayed, worked,
> > played and worshipped
> > God
> > together. Ours has been and will continue to
> > be an inclusive city.
> > We
> > strongly dis approve of the attacks that
> > occurred in Alexandra
> > township
> > and are calling on communities to refrain from
> > violent attacks or
> > xenophobic activities.â€
> >
> > # Siphiwe Madondo, 41, was murdered on Sunday
> > night after he
> > allegedly
> > refused to take part in the attacks on
> > foreigners.
> >
> > His shack mate, Pretty Ndzimbovu, said: “He
> > was already shot when
> > we
> > were taking him to the clinic at around
> > 10.30pm. He fell and asked
> > me to
> > get a car for him and the police, but a man
> > appeared and shot
> > him [a
> > second time] in the chest.â€
> >
> > She said Madondo’s body lay in the street
> > all night .
> >
> > Nosipho Madondo, the dead man’s sister, was
> > too distraught to
> > speak.
> >
> >
> >
> > She
> >
> >
> >
> > sobbed as goats strolled past her brother’s
> > body
> >
> > # Yvonne Ndlovu, from Bulawayo, was making her
> > way to a phone booth
> > to
> > call for help yesterday, blood streaming down
> > her face. The mob had
> > arrived at her London Road shack and attacked
> > her yesterday as
> > police
> > dealt with Madondo’s corpse up the road.
> >
> > Adding insult to injury, four women mocked the
> > bloody Ndlovu,
> > telling
> > her she should go home.
> >
> > # Willex Katundu, his face criss- crossed with
> > stitches and caked in
> > dried blood, worried where he would sleep last
> > night.
> >
> > A Malawian who has lived in Alexandra for 23
> > years, he said he had
> > gone
> > to investigate gunshots on Sunday night. “I
> > was beaten up by about
> > 10
> > people because I am not South African.â€
> >
> > Last night Katundu, his wife and their three
> > children joined the
> > exodus
> > from Alexandra.
> >
> > Meanwhile, in an act reminiscent of Passover,
> > some terrified South
> > Africans started marking their shacks with
> > their surnames, Madondo,
> > Ndlovu, Masinga, Cele ...
> >
> > But some Alex residents openly supported the
> > xenophobic attacks.
> >
> > Thumi Ntswane said: “We are not trying to
> > kill anyone but rather
> >
> >
> >
> > solving
> >
> >
> >
> > the problems of our own country. The
> > government is not doing
> > anything
> > about this, so I support what the mob is doing.â€
> >
> > A group carrying posters warning “We don’t
> > want any foreignersâ€
> > congregated near the Wynberg Magistrate’s
> > Court.
> >
> > South African Account:
> >
> > A number of Xenophobic attacks took place when
> > the mob from the
> > hostel
> > in the township closed down shops.
> >
> > Most of them are owned by non-South Africans.
> >
> > "Rafiq", a tuck-shop owner who refused to give
> > his surname, was
> > horrified by the attacks and said he is now
> > forced by the police to
> > close down shop until the attacks quitened
> > down. "The don’t want
> > us
> >
> > (foreigners) here. We had clothes and bags on
> > the outside and the
> > mob is
> > stealing them" said "Rafiq".
> >
> > Thumi Ntswane from the township supports the
> > violence. He said:"We
> > are
> > not trying to kill anyone but rather solving
> > the problems of our
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DEBATE mailing list
> > DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org
> > <mailto:DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org>
> > http://lists.kabissa.org/mailman/listinfo/debate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Blog at: http://domza.blogspot.com/
> > Communist University web site at:
> > http://amadlandawonye.wikispaces.com/
> > Subscribe for free e-mail updates at:
> > http://groups.google.com/group/Communist-University/
> > Library of documents (CU "CD") at:
> > http://cu.domza.net/
> > dominic.tweedie at gmail.com
> > <mailto:dominic.tweedie at gmail.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DEBATE mailing list
> > DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org
> > <mailto:DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org>
> > http://lists.kabissa.org/mailman/listinfo/debate
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DEBATE mailing list
> > DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org <mailto:DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org>
> > http://lists.kabissa.org/mailman/listinfo/debate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DEBATE mailing list
> > DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org <mailto:DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org>
> > http://lists.kabissa.org/mailman/listinfo/debate
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > DEBATE mailing list
> > DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org <mailto:DEBATE at debate.kabissa.org>
> > http://lists.kabissa.org/mailman/listinfo/debate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Blog at: http://domza.blogspot.com/
> > Communist University web site at: http://amadlandawonye.wikispaces.com/
> > Subscribe for free e-mail updates at:
> > http://groups.google.com/group/Communist-University/
> > Library of documents (CU "CD") at: http://cu.domza.net/
> > dominic.tweedie at gmail.com <mailto:dominic.tweedie at gmail.com>
> >
>
>
--
Blog at: http://domza.blogspot.com/
Communist University web site at: http://amadlandawonye.wikispaces.com/
Subscribe for free e-mail updates at:
http://groups.google.com/group/Communist-University/
Library of documents (CU "CD") at: http://cu.domza.net/
dominic.tweedie at gmail.com
More information about the Debate-list
mailing list