[DEBATE] : War, What Is It Good for?

[peter waterman]

Yoshie, I am not sure whether your argument answers the question I posed.

I was suggesting that there was something in the nature of the regimes and 
either created or permitted the rise of racism, fascism and fundamentalism.

You seem to be suggesting that these came out of the opposition to the 
regimes. Yet racism, extreme authoritarianism/extreme self-subordination, 
and a secular fundamentalism - these were all traits of Communist regimes.

After all, the populations of these countries might have reacted in terms of 
liberalism, social democracy, or democratic socialism. And, indeed, all 
these responses were to be found amongst dissidents, or even predominated at 
certain moments.

So these significant or dominant reactionary or fundamentalist tendencies 
within ex-Communist countries has, I think, to be sought within the nature 
of those regimes themselves.

Plus, of course, one has to take into account what ideas and movements were 
and are available within the capitalist world disorder these alienated 
citizens were entering. Plenty of conservative, reactionary and 
fundamentalist ideas available here.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Yoshie Furuhashi" <critical.montages at gmail.com>
To: "debate: SA discussion list" <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [DEBATE] : War, What Is It Good for?


> On Nov 6, 2007 4:20 AM, peter waterman <p.waterman at inter.nl.net> wrote:
>> Well, Yoshie, I am not sure what point this evidence is meant to 
>> establish.
>> I think I suggested that barbaric socialism had been followed by barbaric
>> capitalism.
>>
>> I do feel that the most damaging evidence concerning the nature of the 
>> state
>> socialist regimes is precisely what was left (small 'l') after they
>> collapsed.
>>
>> If, after such a collapse, there is a rise of racism, fascism or 
>> religious
>> fundamentalism, amongst the people, then what kind of people was it that
>> Communism - in 40 or 70 years - had created?
>
> In countries where anti-racism, anti-fascism, and anti-religious
> fundamentalism (indeed atheism itself) are official ideologies, those
> who rebel against them tend to lean to precisely the heretical
> ideologies made verboten by the states they are rebelling against.
> Afghanistan under the PDPA backed by the Soviet Union is the most
> extreme example*, but the same dynamic operated under other state
> socialist countries, too.  Dissidents often gravitated toward religion
> (e.g., Catholicism in Poland) or separatist nationalism (e.g.,
> Yugoslavia) as alternative ideologies.
>
> *  Another extreme example is Estonia, where anti-Soviet and
> anti-Russian feelings come packaged in pro-Nazi displays:
>
> <http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/33219/edition_id/615/format/html/displaystory.html>
> Friday August 10, 2007
>
> Estonian pro-Nazi display outrages Soviets, Jews
>
> by igor serebryany
> jta
>
> moscow - Estonia's commemoration of its pro-German World War II past,
> including the re-enactment of a Nazi victory, has outraged European
> officials and the Russian Jewish community.
>
> Recently, veterans of the Waffen SS 20th Estonian Division celebrated
> the anniversary of the first clashes between Estonian pro-German
> troops and the Soviet Army in 1941.
>
> And on Monday, Aug. 6, young Estonian ultra-rightists began a week of
> commemoration by re-enacting the 1941 Erna Campaign, when a
> diversionary platoon of 42 Estonian paramilitary volunteers trounced
> the Soviet Red Army. According to the semi-official Russian Federal
> News Agency, the re-enactment attracted participation from 10
> countries, including the United States, Finland and Germany.
>
> Recalling its pro-German World War II past has been an annual
> tradition for Estonia since the republic seceded from the Soviet Union
> in 1991.
>
> Rene van der Linden, chairman of the Parliamentary Assembly of the
> Council of Europe, said Estonian efforts to whitewash its Nazi past
> would be high on the assembly's agenda when it convenes Oct. 1 in
> Strasbourg.
>
> During last week's commemoration, in the small Estonian town of
> Sinimiae, elderly veterans from Estonia, Norway and Austria traveled
> three hours by charter bus from Tallinn, the Estonian capital. They
> were accompanied by dozens of young followers dressed in T-shirts with
> Nazi symbols, along with Estonian officials, including Parliament
> member Trivimi Velliste and Minister of Defense Jak Aaviksoo.
>
> Speaking before the gathering, Aaviksoo reportedly called the former
> SS commandos "fighters for independence" and Velliste described the
> Soviet soldiers as "terrorists."
>
> Moscow described the Sinimiae event as a "popularization of Nazism."
>
> Estonia has clashed previously with Moscow over what Russia has called
> Estonia's "glorification" of its Nazi past. In January, 150 people
> were wounded and more than 1,000 detained in violent street protests
> in Tallinn after a bronze statue commemorating a World War II Soviet
> soldier was moved from a downtown square to a less prestigious
> location outside the city's center.
>
> Estonia's prewar Jewish population was virtually destroyed during the
> country's four years of Nazi occupation. Estonia's small Jewish
> population of 3,500 has stayed out of the fray, offering no formal
> comment on either the statue removal or this week's commemorative
> events.
>
> Foreign Jews, however, were outspoken.
>
> Boruch Gorin, the Moscow-based spokesman for the Chabad-affiliated
> Federation of Jewish Communities of Russia, blasted the commemoration
> in Sinimiae, saying the Estonian government and church leaders who
> supported it made heroes of "blood-thirsty killers" and were "dancing
> on the bones" of Jews killed in the Holocaust.
>
> The Russian delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly repeatedly has
> drawn attention to the situation in Estonia, but this will mark the
> first time it will be discussed formally. The assembly has 47 member
> states. Israeli representatives have attended as observers since 1957,
> but without voting rights. Van der Linden, the assembly chairman,
> plans to visit Estonia prior to October.
>
> "Russian Jewry hopes the assembly will put the lid on this
> glorification of Hitler's death squads," Gorin said. "If we let them
> forget the lessons of history, we may face such crimes again."
>
>
> -- 
> Yoshie
> <http://montages.blogspot.com/>
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