[DEBATE] : Re: DEBATE Digest, Vol 245, Issue 6
Sean Jacobs
tintinyana at gmail.com
Mon Dec 17 15:17:46 GMT 2007
"Mbeki, arguably the greatest political speech-writer in South
Africa,..." Huh?
--------------------------------------------
Sean Jacobs
Blogging as Leo Africanus at http://theleoafricanus.blogspot.com
On Dec 17, 2007, at 11:55 AM, debate-request at lists.kabissa.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. (Fwd) Charlene Smith on Mbeki's farewell (Patrick Bond)
> 2. On Bill Freund (Patrick Bond)
> 3. Re: (Fwd) Charlene Smith on Mbeki's farewell (MFleshman at aol.com)
>
> From: Patrick Bond <pbond at mail.ngo.za>
> Date: December 17, 2007 11:21:19 AM EST
> To: debate at vodamail.co.za:SA discussion list <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> Cc: Subject: [DEBATE] : (Fwd) Charlene Smith on Mbeki's farewell
> Reply-To: "debate: SA discussion list " <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
>
>
> thoughtleader.co.za
>
> Hamba Mbeki! Welcome, hope
> by Charlene Smith
>
>
> It's raining in Johannesburg. In Africa, we believe rain is a
> blessing, that it cleanses, brings new life.
> This week African National Congress delegates at Polokwane make the
> most important political decision the movement has taken since 1956
> when it voted to allow white members, and pan-Africanists under Robert
> Sobukwe broke away.
>
> In the same way that the Youth League of 1948 under Nelson Mandela,
> Walter Sisulu and others shook up an organisation that had grown
> slothful and corrupt under founder Pixley ka Seme and his cohorts,
> those who at Sunday's opening of the conference jeered ANC chairman
> Terror Lekota and President Thabo Mbeki are demanding an ANC that is
> once more accountable to the people.
>
> You'd have to be the most cynical of observers not to see how hopeful
> those scenes were — not in the way Mbeki was humiliated, but in the
> way citizens of an African country, those who belong to the ruling
> party, essentially told a leader to go to hell because he had failed
> them. If you do not see that as the brightest star to shine above this
> continent for a long time, then little will persuade you. It shows
> democracy in action; this is the African renaissance.
>
> Delegates essentially told an ANC leadership increasingly distant and
> contemptuous of its supporters that without economic freedom, there is
> no political freedom. A vote should be a ticket to a better future for
> all, not to Mercedes 4×4s for an elite.
>
> It has set a precedent that every leader, in business and politics,
> should take careful note of — people are tired of waiting. They demand
> to be heard, to be respected.
>
> Mbeki has the arrogance of one born into the ANC; he thinks he can
> direct it. Those who reject him are a new generation; they chose to
> join the ANC not because of what they hoped it could destroy
> (apartheid), but because of the promise of what it could build. These
> are the members not of struggle, but of democracy. They want what they
> were promised. And they want a say in decisions.
>
> In every post-liberation African country, citizens have been cowed by
> the lies of revolutionary leaders. They have stayed silent as their
> countries have slid down the slope. In Polokwane on Sunday, people
> held up their hand against the slide.
>
> A brave activist friend in Zimbabwe sent me these words by Alice
> Walker: "It has become a common feeling, I believe, as we have watched
> our heroes falling over the years, that our own small stone of
> activism, which might not seem to measure up to the rugged boulders of
> heroism we have so admired, is a paltry offering toward the building
> of an edifice of hope. Many who believe this choose to withhold their
> offerings out of shame. This is the tragedy of the world. For we can
> do nothing substantial toward changing our course on the planet, a
> destructive one, without rousing ourselves, individual by individual,
> and bringing our small, imperfect stones to the pile."
>
> If the citizens of Zimbabwe had stood up to Robert Mugabe the way
> South Africans did to Mbeki and the ANC leadership on Sunday, he would
> have been long gone. And no, our struggle is not over; it has just
> begun, but if Zimbabweans had done the same to Mugabe eight years into
> his reign, the destiny of that country would not be as bleak. On
> Sunday, a few South Africans showed they will not submit quietly and
> by doing that, they gave us back our future.
>
> In an interview with the Mail & Guardian last week, his first in eight
> years, Mbeki said he had not realised the discontent of voters. Does
> he not read newspapers? If he did not realise the extent of
> discontent, why did he spend so much time attacking citizens,
> journalists, business people and others in his Friday letter? If,
> instead of walking shielded by bodyguards and speeding through
> communities with seven-car cavalcades, vehicles three abreast, if he'd
> stopped and walked among his people as Nelson Mandela did, then
> perhaps he may have known.
>
> But in truth, Mbeki's problem was that he believed he knew everything.
> It is better to have a president who knows what he doesn't know and
> surrounds himself or herself with sound advisers than one who rejects
> counsel.
>
> This week, the ANC's pan-Africanist president will face the judgement
> of those he neglected, those against whom he orchestrated dirty
> tricks, those he insulted and those he wrongfully accused of plotting
> against him. He may still win, of course, but if he does it will be a
> bitter victory — for him and the nation.
>
> Cyril Ramaphosa and Tokyo Sexwale, forced out of the ANC presidential
> race by Mbeki before 1999 and who later claimed they had organised a
> conspiracy against him in 2000, are backing Zuma. Big businessman
> Patrice Motsepe has also turned his back on Mbeki.
>
> In Latin America, it was said after repeated coups in the 1970s and
> 1980s that no coup could succeed without the backing of big business.
> Mbeki is likely to discover that his pro-business position was always
> tenuous because it lacked sufficient attention to the poor. The
> interests of the rich are always in danger, when too many of a
> populace go to bed hungry.
>
> The poor do not threaten us; those who manipulate them do. High rates
> of crime here, as an example, are not a result of poverty, but of
> syndicates that have bribed the already privileged. It is the powerful
> who are corrupt that most endanger us. Beware, too, when you read
> this, of making easy judgements. The arms deal warns us again and
> again that there was a tapestry of top-level corruption, and less than
> a handful have faced charges. Are we rotten at the top? Even Mbeki and
> ANC secretary general Kgalema Motlanthe sketched a nation and an
> organisation riven with greed.
>
> Which may be why principled business in the form of Ramaphosa and
> Sexwale are making a stand. Cyril Ramaphosa was the son of a
> policeman; in 1977 he was expelled from the same university where the
> ANC conference is being held for being part of black consciousness
> protests. Tokyo Sexwale came from a humble background; so did Motsepe
> — Mbeki, by contrast, didn't. As Mark Gevisser described at the launch
> of his book A Dream Deferred, Mbeki came from a family that was an
> intellectual, political and financial elite. From the age of 19 he
> patrolled the cocktail circuits of Europe, returning home in his 50s
> to a people Gevisser reports that he said he felt a "disconnect" from.
>
> Ramaphosa, Sexwale, Mac Maharaj, Jacob Zuma, Mathews Phosa — all those
> Mbeki humiliated understand the need to assuage the interests of the
> poor to grow the nation and to protect the fortunes they and the
> country have amassed. They will provide a strong counter to Cosatu's
> desire to move the country left.
>
> Mbeki, arguably the greatest political speech-writer in South Africa,
> failed on Sunday when he most needed to persuade. He strode to the
> podium in a brown golf shirt with pink and grey stripes, an ANC logo
> on his left breast; he never smiled, never made eye contact with the
> people with whom he should have sought to have some rapport. He spoke
> in the same way he ruled: aloof, dispassionate, disinterested in those
> before him.
>
> The South African Broadcasting Corporation cameras never showed us the
> expressions of others on the podium. The SABC tried to control the
> situation with rigid camerawork, but ANC rank-and-file members are not
> under orders from Snuki Zikalala. There was occasional low-key
> heckling of Mbeki. Then, before the startled eyes of older cadres who
> had never yet been to a contested presidential election at an ANC
> conference, after Mbeki finished speaking chaos broke out with
> sustained pro-Zuma chants and singing. A beleaguered Terror Lekota,
> once one of the most popular people in the ANC until he began
> fervently backing Mbeki, failed to restore calm.
>
> Earlier during his almost three-hour speech, Mbeki did something
> psychologically telling; when he began talking about "confronting
> poverty and underdevelopment", he took out a white handkerchief and
> wiped his brow.
>
> Mbeki should have inspired and yet he went through a dull litany of
> what his government had achieved and how it could have achieved more
> but for the corrupt. The point, however, is that it was he who had the
> power as president of the ANC and of the country to call opportunists
> and the corrupt to book, but in too many high-profile cases he either
> did nothing or prevented investigations.
>
> The sacking of Vusi Pikoli, head of the National Prosecuting Authority
> and widely considered an honourable man, just before he was due to
> arrest police Commissioner Jackie Selebi is one point. Tony Yengeni's
> brief sojourn in jail and the suspension of a police officer who
> claimed he was driving drunk is another.
>
> Mbeki spoke of how public spending had increased by 9,4% in the past
> five years and that "spending per person has grown twice as fast as
> the growth of the economy" — but failed to note how much of the money
> allocated had not resulted in delivery. Take as an example the
> R5-billion allocated to education in the poverty-stricken Eastern Cape
> and not spent because of bureaucratic ineptitude.
>
> Mbeki noted, too, that, "the areas with the greatest number of violent
> crimes are poor and depressed economically. In those areas there are
> few recreational facilities, unemployment is high, there are many
> shebeens, there are dysfunctional families and the level of substance
> abuse is very high." But why, one wondered listening to him, have you
> done so little to remedy this? Where is the building of parks or youth
> centres or intense programmes to stop drug or alcohol abuse and help
> those addicted?
>
> He was booed when he denied that under him there had been a
> "centralisation of government power in president" or an "abuse of
> state power". He responded: "It is easy for members to be misled." And
> here he made the most serious mistake any political leader can make —
> speaking to his constituency as though they are children and lack the
> wisdom to make their own decisions.
>
> If people walked in clean, safe streets, believed they had work
> opportunities, if clean water flowed from taps and children had good
> education and effective medical care, then no trouble maker could
> succeed.
>
> It will be remarkable if Mbeki wins at the polls. If he does, I do not
> want to be in Polokwane, because it is a decision that will not be
> believed either there or in other parts of the country. If he loses,
> history will commend him if he calls an early national election and
> goes with dignity. He has made so many enemies that it is hard to see
> what post he could assume here or internationally. A United Nations
> post seemed obvious, but South Africa's record at the Security Council
> has been so contentious that it is now probably out of the question.
> His position at Portugal recently in defence of Zimbabwe's Robert
> Mugabe alienated many Europeans.
>
> By contrast, Zuma will be elected knowing that many mistrust him. He
> is starting off a low base, but has the backing of some remarkable
> people. Much has already happened in Polokwane to give cause for hope.
> Perhaps the rain is a messenger.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Patrick Bond <pbond at mail.ngo.za>
> Date: December 17, 2007 11:21:55 AM EST
> To: debate at vodamail.co.za:SA discussion list <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> Cc: Subject: [DEBATE] : On Bill Freund
> Reply-To: "debate: SA discussion list " <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
>
>
> (This essay was done a couple of years ago for a festschrift for Bill
> Freund, who recently retired from UKZN Economic History department and
> is now emeritus prof. The article was rejected by the Glaser brothers
> - i.e., the African Studies journal editor and his reviewer - for
> being too critical and lefty, notwithstanding support from that
> journal's guest editors, who'd commissioned it. But unchanged it was
> just published in the journal Politikon.)
>
>
> South Africa between Neoliberalism and Social Democracy?: Respecting
> Balance while Sharpening Differences
> Author: Patrick Bond - * Centre for Civil Society, School of
> Development Studies, University of KwaZulu Natal, Durban, South
> Africa.
> Publication Frequency: 3 issues per year
> Published in: journal Politikon, Volume 34, Issue 2, pages 125 - 146
>
> Abstract
> The diverse, rich writings of Bill Freund are celebrated, justly, for
> insight, critical distance and engagement with society's most profound
> problems. That engagement, however, is open-ended, honest and
> provocative, hence inviting further debate. This paper considers
> Freund's perspectives on socialism and post-colonial class
> orientation; South African liberation winners and losers; the nature
> of the post-apartheid urban experience; international and regional
> processes; the role of the left intelligentsia; and the emerging
> community-based alternative to the ruling party and its alliance with
> workers and communities. In all of these areas, Freund's recent
> writing unveils creative tensions, often requiring rejoinders and
> rebuttals, as he charts a course of analysis that hovers between
> critique and endorsement, i.e. between an awareness of neoliberal
> problems and a desire for genuine social democratic solutions. From
> analysis to agency, Freund's reading of South Africa allows us to
> sharpen differences with his viewpoint and evidence, while also
> respecting his extraordinary balance.
>
> ***
>
> Introduction
>
> Did the liberation of South Africa represent ‘a reformed version of
> the existing
> configuration, a revolutionary negation of that configuration, or
> something in
> between’? To help judge, according to Bill Freund, there are other
> examples to
> draw upon: Russia’s 1917 revolution, the US 1930s New Deal, the French
> 1936
> Popular Front, British Labour in 1945. Each of these cases, no matter
> their diversity,
> amounted to a ‘decisive break’, a transition sufficiently powerful to
> forge new
> class alliances that ‘provide legitimacy, to a great variety of
> political orders’
> (Freund, 1986a).
>
> For Freund, the dramatic rupture in the balance of forces sought by
> progressives
> must be accompanied by that crucial variable, political legitimacy for
> the long
> haul. To monitor legitimacy requires of the sympathetic analyst highly
> nuanced
> considerations of both contradictions and stabilising capacities. The
> ability to
> provide nuance has marked Freund’s work for many years across the
> African continent,
> and supplied his readers with highly detailed explorations of
> intra-capitalist
> machinations, of capital–labour relations, of workers’ culture, and
> more recently
> of dynamics within the main cauldron of social contradiction, the mega
> city
> (especially Durban). Freund’s contemporary South African political
> writing is particularly
> balanced, maybe to a fault, presuming as it does a basic critique of
> racial/
> gendered capitalist power relations, yet also evoking caution against
> excessively
> urgent, radical and explicitly socialist scholarship and activism.
> Where critics
> see contradiction, Freund insists there is ruling class legitimacy,
> even if sometimes
> he goes out of his way to provide it, even where that task is an
> intellectual and
> political stretch.
>
> FULL PAPER AVAILABLE: pbond at mail.ngo.za
>
>
>
>
>
> From: MFleshman at aol.com
> Date: December 17, 2007 11:37:40 AM EST
> To: debate at lists.kabissa.org
> Subject: Re: [DEBATE] : (Fwd) Charlene Smith on Mbeki's farewell
> Reply-To: "debate: SA discussion list " <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
>
>
>
> Principled business???
>
> Looks from here like a South African version of the classic American
> electoral political cu-de-sac of anybody-but-the-incumbent. Good
> riddance but God
> help us. The real test I think will be if the ANC insurrectionaries
> will be
> prepared to tell Zuma to go the hell. Anybody but Thabo isn't much of
> a manifesto.
>
> In a message dated 12/17/2007 11:25:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> pbond at mail.ngo.za writes:
>
> Hamba Mbeki! Welcome, hope
> by Charlene Smith
>
>
> It's raining in Johannesburg. In Africa, we believe rain is a blessing,
> that it cleanses, brings new life.
> This week African National Congress delegates at Polokwane make the
> most
> important political decision the movement has taken since 1956 when it
> voted to allow white members, and pan-Africanists under Robert Sobukwe
> broke away.
>
> In the same way that the Youth League of 1948 under Nelson Mandela,
> Walter Sisulu and others shook up an organisation that had grown
> slothful and corrupt under founder Pixley ka Seme and his cohorts,
> those
> who at Sunday's opening of the conference jeered ANC chairman Terror
> Lekota and President Thabo Mbeki are demanding an ANC that is once more
> accountable to the people.
>
> You'd have to be the most cynical of observers not to see how hopeful
> those scenes were — not in the way Mbeki was humiliated, but in the way
> citizens of an African country, those who belong to the ruling party,
> essentially told a leader to go to hell because he had failed them. If
> you do not see that as the brightest star to shine above this continent
> for a long time, then little will persuade you. It shows democracy in
> action; this is the African renaissance.
>
> Delegates essentially told an ANC leadership increasingly distant and
> contemptuous of its supporters that without economic freedom, there is
> no political freedom. A vote should be a ticket to a better future for
> all, not to Mercedes 4×4s for an elite.
>
> It has set a precedent that every leader, in business and politics,
> should take careful note of — people are tired of waiting. They demand
> to be heard, to be respected.
>
> Mbeki has the arrogance of one born into the ANC; he thinks he can
> direct it. Those who reject him are a new generation; they chose to
> join
> the ANC not because of what they hoped it could destroy (apartheid),
> but
> because of the promise of what it could build. These are the members
> not
> of struggle, but of democracy. They want what they were promised. And
> they want a say in decisions.
>
> In every post-liberation African country, citizens have been cowed by
> the lies of revolutionary leaders. They have stayed silent as their
> countries have slid down the slope. In Polokwane on Sunday, people held
> up their hand against the slide.
>
> A brave activist friend in Zimbabwe sent me these words by Alice
> Walker:
> "It has become a common feeling, I believe, as we have watched our
> heroes falling over the years, that our own small stone of activism,
> which might not seem to measure up to the rugged boulders of heroism we
> have so admired, is a paltry offering toward the building of an edifice
> of hope. Many who believe this choose to withhold their offerings out
> of
> shame. This is the tragedy of the world. For we can do nothing
> substantial toward changing our course on the planet, a destructive
> one,
> without rousing ourselves, individual by individual, and bringing our
> small, imperfect stones to the pile."
>
> If the citizens of Zimbabwe had stood up to Robert Mugabe the way South
> Africans did to Mbeki and the ANC leadership on Sunday, he would have
> been long gone. And no, our struggle is not over; it has just begun,
> but
> if Zimbabweans had done the same to Mugabe eight years into his reign,
> the destiny of that country would not be as bleak. On Sunday, a few
> South Africans showed they will not submit quietly and by doing that,
> they gave us back our future.
>
> In an interview with the Mail & Guardian last week, his first in eight
> years, Mbeki said he had not realised the discontent of voters. Does he
> not read newspapers? If he did not realise the extent of discontent,
> why
> did he spend so much time attacking citizens, journalists, business
> people and others in his Friday letter? If, instead of walking shielded
> by bodyguards and speeding through communities with seven-car
> cavalcades, vehicles three abreast, if he'd stopped and walked among
> his
> people as Nelson Mandela did, then perhaps he may have known.
>
> But in truth, Mbeki's problem was that he believed he knew everything.
> It is better to have a president who knows what he doesn't know and
> surrounds himself or herself with sound advisers than one who rejects
> counsel.
>
> This week, the ANC's pan-Africanist president will face the judgement
> of
> those he neglected, those against whom he orchestrated dirty tricks,
> those he insulted and those he wrongfully accused of plotting against
> him. He may still win, of course, but if he does it will be a bitter
> victory — for him and the nation.
>
> Cyril Ramaphosa and Tokyo Sexwale, forced out of the ANC presidential
> race by Mbeki before 1999 and who later claimed they had organised a
> conspiracy against him in 2000, are backing Zuma. Big businessman
> Patrice Motsepe has also turned his back on Mbeki.
>
> In Latin America, it was said after repeated coups in the 1970s and
> 1980s that no coup could succeed without the backing of big business.
> Mbeki is likely to discover that his pro-business position was always
> tenuous because it lacked sufficient attention to the poor. The
> interests of the rich are always in danger, when too many of a populace
> go to bed hungry.
>
> The poor do not threaten us; those who manipulate them do. High rates
> of
> crime here, as an example, are not a result of poverty, but of
> syndicates that have bribed the already privileged. It is the powerful
> who are corrupt that most endanger us. Beware, too, when you read this,
> of making easy judgements. The arms deal warns us again and again that
> there was a tapestry of top-level corruption, and less than a handful
> have faced charges. Are we rotten at the top? Even Mbeki and ANC
> secretary general Kgalema Motlanthe sketched a nation and an
> organisation riven with greed.
>
> Which may be why principled business in the form of Ramaphosa and
> Sexwale are making a stand. Cyril Ramaphosa was the son of a policeman;
> in 1977 he was expelled from the same university where the ANC
> conference is being held for being part of black consciousness
> protests.
> Tokyo Sexwale came from a humble background; so did Motsepe — Mbeki, by
> contrast, didn't. As Mark Gevisser described at the launch of his book
> A
> Dream Deferred, Mbeki came from a family that was an intellectual,
> political and financial elite. From the age of 19 he patrolled the
> cocktail circuits of Europe, returning home in his 50s to a people
> Gevisser reports that he said he felt a "disconnect" from.
>
> Ramaphosa, Sexwale, Mac Maharaj, Jacob Zuma, Mathews Phosa — all those
> Mbeki humiliated understand the need to assuage the interests of the
> poor to grow the nation and to protect the fortunes they and the
> country
> have amassed. They will provide a strong counter to Cosatu's desire to
> move the country left.
>
> Mbeki, arguably the greatest political speech-writer in South Africa,
> failed on Sunday when he most needed to persuade. He strode to the
> podium in a brown golf shirt with pink and grey stripes, an ANC logo on
> his left breast; he never smiled, never made eye contact with the
> people
> with whom he should have sought to have some rapport. He spoke in the
> same way he ruled: aloof, dispassionate, disinterested in those before
> him.
>
> The South African Broadcasting Corporation cameras never showed us the
> expressions of others on the podium. The SABC tried to control the
> situation with rigid camerawork, but ANC rank-and-file members are not
> under orders from Snuki Zikalala. There was occasional low-key heckling
> of Mbeki. Then, before the startled eyes of older cadres who had never
> yet been to a contested presidential election at an ANC conference,
> after Mbeki finished speaking chaos broke out with sustained pro-Zuma
> chants and singing. A beleaguered Terror Lekota, once one of the most
> popular people in the ANC until he began fervently backing Mbeki,
> failed
> to restore calm.
>
> Earlier during his almost three-hour speech, Mbeki did something
> psychologically telling; when he began talking about "confronting
> poverty and underdevelopment", he took out a white handkerchief and
> wiped his brow.
>
> Mbeki should have inspired and yet he went through a dull litany of
> what
> his government had achieved and how it could have achieved more but for
> the corrupt. The point, however, is that it was he who had the power as
> president of the ANC and of the country to call opportunists and the
> corrupt to book, but in too many high-profile cases he either did
> nothing or prevented investigations.
>
> The sacking of Vusi Pikoli, head of the National Prosecuting Authority
> and widely considered an honourable man, just before he was due to
> arrest police Commissioner Jackie Selebi is one point. Tony Yengeni's
> brief sojourn in jail and the suspension of a police officer who
> claimed
> he was driving drunk is another.
>
> Mbeki spoke of how public spending had increased by 9,4% in the past
> five years and that "spending per person has grown twice as fast as the
> growth of the economy" — but failed to note how much of the money
> allocated had not resulted in delivery. Take as an example the
> R5-billion allocated to education in the poverty-stricken Eastern Cape
> and not spent because of bureaucratic ineptitude.
>
> Mbeki noted, too, that, "the areas with the greatest number of violent
> crimes are poor and depressed economically. In those areas there are
> few
> recreational facilities, unemployment is high, there are many shebeens,
> there are dysfunctional families and the level of substance abuse is
> very high." But why, one wondered listening to him, have you done so
> little to remedy this? Where is the building of parks or youth centres
> or intense programmes to stop drug or alcohol abuse and help those
> addicted?
>
> He was booed when he denied that under him there had been a
> "centralisation of government power in president" or an "abuse of state
> power". He responded: "It is easy for members to be misled." And here
> he
> made the most serious mistake any political leader can make — speaking
> to his constituency as though they are children and lack the wisdom to
> make their own decisions.
>
> If people walked in clean, safe streets, believed they had work
> opportunities, if clean water flowed from taps and children had good
> education and effective medical care, then no trouble maker could
> succeed.
>
> It will be remarkable if Mbeki wins at the polls. If he does, I do not
> want to be in Polokwane, because it is a decision that will not be
> believed either there or in other parts of the country. If he loses,
> history will commend him if he calls an early national election and
> goes
> with dignity. He has made so many enemies that it is hard to see what
> post he could assume here or internationally. A United Nations post
> seemed obvious, but South Africa's record at the Security Council has
> been so contentious that it is now probably out of the question. His
> position at Portugal recently in defence of Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe
> alienated many Europeans.
>
> By contrast, Zuma will be elected knowing that many mistrust him. He is
> starting off a low base, but has the backing of some remarkable people.
> Much has already happened in Polokwane to give cause for hope. Perhaps
> the rain is a messenger.
>
>
>
>
>
> **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
> (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
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>
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