[DEBATE] : Re: War and Social Breakdown

Peter Mahlangu tshankimahlangu at yahoo.com
Wed Apr 26 12:25:53 BST 2006 

I am not evading the question; just thought the idea
of war being a normal state of affairs in society was
the main point. 

But to answer the question I inadvertently evaded, I
think, firstly, that soldiers, by definition, are
trained killers. Forget the noise about "peacekeeping"
or "defending our borders and democracy". Soldiers are
mercenaries doing their master's bidding. While a good
doctor is one who treats patients effectively, a good
soldier is one who kills efficiently, a sharpshooter.

My view is that when war breaks out (except in
America, where they never fight on their home soil),
all national attention is focused on it, leaving
"ordinary" law enforcement to suffer. What happens
when this "authority vacuum" is created is that
criminals (of all kinds), will run amok. Robbery,
looting, rape, murder. This is in addition to the
orchestrated murder,rape and pillage (targeted mainly
at civilians, particularly women and children)
committed by soldiers, on the orders of the high
command. 

I still am not convinced that the cruelty and
heartlessness displayed (by both sides, to each other
and to their own people) during war are surrogate
markers of the attitudes of men during peacetime. The
context is completely different. I also fail to see
the connection between patriarchy and what you refer
to as "male attitudes to violence, domination, rape,
sex, etc".



--- Alan Murphy <ecopeace at gmail.com> wrote:

> Peter
> 
> 
> 
> You are evading the issue of 'usual' male attitudes
> to; violence,
> domination, rape, seduction, sex, relationships etc.
> These 'norms' cannot be
> divorced from patriarchy - male control of state and
> economic powers - and
> the high historical incidence of warfare as a means
> of supposedly solving
> social problems. "War is the highest method of
> resolving conflict" - Mao.
> 
> 
> 
> You characterise war as a breakdown of law and
> order, when the facts are
> that law and order and democracy are used to wage
> war - i.e. Iraq. Few first
> world foreign combatants and security personnel are
> in Iraq without the
> legal sanction of their native states. What does
> this imply about male
> attitudes to violence and rape?
> 
> 
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/26/06, Peter Mahlangu
> <tshankimahlangu at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Your view that war is part of normal life is quite
> > interesting, and may have a ring of truth to it.
> But
> > will the people of Iraq agree with you now, as
> > contrasted to the people of Botswana? I think not.
> >
> > --- Alan Murphy <ecopeace at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Peter
> > > You imply that war is not normal, a social
> > > breakdown.  Well it may suprise
> > > you that it is actually the norm in much of
> history
> > > and up till present day
> > > - and requires social structures to enact and
> > > immense finances to even make
> > > preparations. This is not a breakdown of law and
> > > order. And the so-called
> > > 'breakdown' murder and increase of criminal
> activity
> > > are not incidental but
> > > germaine to a military campaign. What does this
> tell
> > > you of dominant
> > > normative male attitudes?
> > > Alan
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/25/06, Peter Mahlangu
> > > <tshankimahlangu at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Alan,
> > > >
> > > > I don't dispute how rape has been employed in
> > > wars, or
> > > > research into it. We, or at least I, am
> talking
> > > about
> > > > this crime in "normal" society, not in times
> of
> > > social
> > > > breakdown like war or conflict. During war,
> let us
> > > not
> > > > forget that all crimes go up, especially rape,
> > > murder,
> > > > robbery and looting. This is caused by a
> general
> > > > breakdown of law and order that war brings
> with
> > > it.
> > > > One can't expect the Iraqi police to fight
> crime
> > > now.
> > > >
> > > > --- Alan Murphy <ecopeace at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Well Peter seems to have stuck himself in a
> > > corner
> > > > > now. I expect a flood of
> > > > > responses and references for this one.
> Surely
> > > the
> > > > > power thing is basic
> > > > > psychology - and rape is a common weapon of
> > > military
> > > > > domination. I think in
> > > > > Sun Tsu - Art of War - it says the greatest
> > > > > accomplishment is for a man to
> > > > > defeat his enemy in battle, take his land,
> ride
> > > his
> > > > > horses and rape his wife
> > > > > and daughter while he is forced to watch.
> Does
> > > this
> > > > > put millennia of male
> > > > > attitudes to threatened manhood into
> > > perspective?
> > > > >
> > > > > Alan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 4/25/06, Peter Mahlangu
> > > > > <tshankimahlangu at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I disagree completely with the view that
> MEN
> > > feel
> > > > > > threatened that their "manhood" is
> questioned,
> > > and
> > > > > > that rape is not about sex, but power and
> > > > > violence.
> > > > > > What power? The idea that rape can be used
> as
> > > an
> > > > > > instrument of power and oppression must
> have
> > > > > escaped
> > > > > > generations of colonialists who oppressed
> > > other
> > > > > > people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About jailbirds, I have no idea.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- muna <muna at iafrica.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > But Mandi, haven't you realised yet that
> it
> > > is
> > > > > MEN
> > > > > > > who are feeling most
> > > > > > > threatened in the new SA? and that their
> > > manhood
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > being questioned in ways
> > > > > > > that make them feel uncomfortable, so
> they
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > want to unpack their own
> > > > > > > innermost feelings (instead of just
> their
> > > > > thoughts)
> > > > > > > and confront them?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > here is one for you, Peter - what do you
> say
> > > to
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > article in the M&G a
> > > > > > > while back that says that serial
> criminals,
> > > > > > > overwhelmingly male, who go in
> > > > > > > and out of jail on a regular basis do so
> > > > > partially
> > > > > > > because they can have
> > > > > > > man-on-man sex without being called
> "queer";
> > > or
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > penis extensions (which
> > > > > > > I discovered recently only lenghtens the
> > > dormant
> > > > > > > penis, and does not make
> > > > > > > for a longer / thicker penis when erect
> -
> > > the
> > > > > > > benefits of reading in waiting
> > > > > > > rooms!) are carried out so that they can
> > > show
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > men their 'larger'
> > > > > > > penises in locker rooms, given that
> there is
> > > no
> > > > > > > benefit when erect; or that
> > > > > > > at least 1 in 5 "straight" men have
> secret
> > > sex
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > other men (the
> > > > > > > implication being that one in three men
> is
> > > at
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > very least, bisexual if
> > > > > > > not gay).... does this somehow fit in
> with
> > > your
> > > > > > > worldview of men today?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > More seriously, I think that the issue
> of
> > > rape
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > being confused as being
> > > > > > > related to sex, whereas it is about
> power
> > > and
> > > > > > > violence - and if people are
> > > > > > > unaware of where power lies today, then
> they
> > > are
> > > > > > > living in cloud cuckoo land
> > > > > > > indeed...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > kind regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Muna
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Peter Mahlangu"
> > > > > <tshankimahlangu at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > To: <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:07 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [DEBATE] : Re: Rape & the Men
> on
> > > this
> > > > > List
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mandi: "the bigoted crap you refer to is
> > > coming
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > someone who is not only well educated,
> but
> > > > > educated
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > an area that would include, one would
> think,
> > > > > some
> > > > > > > basic
> > > > > > > education in human rights, the
> constitution,
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > meaning thereof".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Peter: I did not receive "basic", but
> > > advanced
> > > > > > > education on human rights and the
> > > constitution.
> > > > > My
> > > > > > > reading of this constution tells me that
> it
> > > is
> > > > > > > grossly
> > > > > > > unfair to protect the identity of a 31
> > > year-old
> > > > > > > complainant in rape cases, but publish
> the
> > > > > identity
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > the accused. The same constitution tells
> me
> > > that
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > rape complaint to the police is not
> proof of
> > > > > actual
> > > > > > > rape (a distinction that is blurred in
> > > official
> > > > > > > statistics). This constitution also
> tells me
> > > > > that it
> > > > > > > is rubbish, and plainly unfair, to
> demand
> > > "No
> > > > > bail"
> > > > > > > for persons accused of rape, a favourite
> > > tactic
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > POWA's of this world.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- Mandi Smallhorne
> <mandiwrite at icon.co.za>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It exhausts me, too, to read this
> stuff;
> > > but
> > > > > > > > consider this: the bigoted crap
> > > > > > > > you refer to is coming from someone
> who is
> > > not
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > well educated, but
> > > > > > > > educated in an area that would
> include,
> > > one
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > think, some basic
> > > > > > > > education in human rights, the
> > > constitution,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > meaning thereof. Yes, I
> > > > > > > > suspect that he may well be pushing
> > > buttons
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fun of it, but even if
> > > > > > > > he is, I think it's worth ventilating
> some
> > > of
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > things...
> > > > > > > > I have met enough men whom I like and
> > > admire,
> > > > > > > whose
> > > > > > > > intellectual capacity
> > > > > > > > and sensitisation to all sorts of
> issues
> > > is
> > > > > > > > undeniable, yet who have never
> > > > > > > > really paid attention to women's
> rights
> > > issues
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > utter the same sort of
> > > > > > > > unthinking, rather patronising
> messages as
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > remember some
> > > > > > > > left-of-centre whites doing during
> > > apartheid
> > > > > > > years,
> > > > > > > > to believe that women's
> > > > > > > > rights issues are in dire need of
> > > explication.
> > > > > > > Even
> > > > > > > > on this list.
> > > > > > > > Mandi
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Charlene Smith"
> > > <clsmith at global.co.za>
> > > > > > > > To: <rangreen at sn.apc.org>; "debate: SA
> > > > > discussion
> > > > > > > > list "
> > > > > > > > <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 4:25 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [DEBATE] : Re: Rape & the Men
> on
> > > this
> > > > > > > List
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Ran Greenstein"
> > > <rangreen at sn.apc.org>
> > > > > > > > > To: <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 4:22 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [DEBATE] : Re: Rape & the
> Men
> > > on
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > List
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 21 Apr 2006 at 16:07, Charlene
> Smith
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > solutions lie within each one of
> us.
> > > At
> > > > > least
> > > > > > > > Peter is battling with
> > > > > > > > > > the issues, he takes the risk to
> > > expose
> > > > > > > himself
> > > > > > > > and his attitudes and
> > > > > > > > > > through it we get some fascinating
> and
> > > > > useful
> > > > > > > > debate. I mourn, that
> > > > > > > > > > other men lack his courage.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The courage to send bigoted crap
> > > message?
> > > > > All
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > need is the ability to
> > > > > > > > > press
> > > > > > > > > a few buttons. Would anyone here
> > > tolerate
> > > > > > > messages
> > > > > > > > that claim that the
> > > > > > > > main
> > > > > > > > > problem in SA today is that black
> people
> > > > > make
> > > > > > > > false accusations about
> > > > > > > > having
> > > > > > > > > been oppressed under apartheid? Or
> that
> > > the
> > > > > main
> > > > > > > > problem with the SA
> > > > > > > > > economy is that people pretend to be
> > > poor so
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > they would receive
> > > > > > > > social
> > > > > > > > > grants and not have to work?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No doubt there are many people in
> > > society at
> > > > > > > large
> > > > > > > > who believe just that,
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > also many who believe that the
> victims
> > > of
> > > > > gender
> > > > > > > > violence are men falsely
> > > > > > > > > accused of rape, and it is important
> to
> > > > > debate
> > > > > > > > them, but is it important
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > do it
> > > > > > > > > here, on this list?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ran Greenstein
> > > > > > > > > Johannesburg, South Africa
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
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