[DEBATE] : Re: Rape & the Men on this List

Tue Apr 25 08:30:50 BST 2006

Well Peter seems to have stuck himself in a corner now. I expect a flood of
responses and references for this one. Surely the power thing is basic
psychology - and rape is a common weapon of military domination. I think in
Sun Tsu - Art of War - it says the greatest accomplishment is for a man to
defeat his enemy in battle, take his land, ride his horses and rape his wife
and daughter while he is forced to watch. Does this put millennia of male
attitudes to threatened manhood into perspective?

Alan

On 4/25/06, Peter Mahlangu <tshankimahlangu at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I disagree completely with the view that MEN feel
> threatened that their "manhood" is questioned, and
> that rape is not about sex, but power and violence.
> What power? The idea that rape can be used as an
> instrument of power and oppression must have escaped
> generations of colonialists who oppressed other
> people.
>
> About jailbirds, I have no idea.
>
> --- muna <muna at iafrica.com> wrote:
>
> > But Mandi, haven't you realised yet that it is MEN
> > who are feeling most
> > threatened in the new SA? and that their manhood is
> > being questioned in ways
> > that make them feel uncomfortable, so they do not
> > want to unpack their own
> > innermost feelings (instead of just their thoughts)
> > and confront them?
> >
> > here is one for you, Peter - what do you say to an
> > article in the M&G a
> > while back that says that serial criminals,
> > overwhelmingly male, who go in
> > and out of jail on a regular basis do so partially
> > because they can have
> > man-on-man sex without being called "queer"; or that
> > penis extensions (which
> > I discovered recently only lenghtens the dormant
> > penis, and does not make
> > for a longer / thicker penis when erect - the
> > benefits of reading in waiting
> > rooms!) are carried out so that they can show other
> > men their 'larger'
> > penises in locker rooms, given that there is no
> > benefit when erect; or that
> > at least 1 in 5 "straight" men have secret sex with
> > other men (the
> > implication being that one in three men is at the
> > very least, bisexual if
> > not gay).... does this somehow fit in with your
> > worldview of men today?
> >
> > More seriously, I think that the issue of rape is
> > being confused as being
> > related to sex, whereas it is about power and
> > violence - and if people are
> > unaware of where power lies today, then they are
> > living in cloud cuckoo land
> > indeed...
> >
> > kind regards
> >
> > Muna
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter Mahlangu" <tshankimahlangu at yahoo.com>
> > To: <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> > Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 11:07 AM
> > Subject: [DEBATE] : Re: Rape & the Men on this List
> >
> >
> > Mandi: "the bigoted crap you refer to is coming from
> > someone who is not only well educated, but educated
> > in
> > an area that would include, one would think, some
> > basic
> > education in human rights, the constitution, and the
> > meaning thereof".
> >
> > Peter: I did not receive "basic", but advanced
> > education on human rights and the constitution. My
> > reading of this constution tells me that it is
> > grossly
> > unfair to protect the identity of a 31 year-old
> > complainant in rape cases, but publish the identity
> > of
> > the accused. The same constitution tells me that a
> > rape complaint to the police is not proof of actual
> > rape (a distinction that is blurred in official
> > statistics). This constitution also tells me that it
> > is rubbish, and plainly unfair, to demand "No bail"
> > for persons accused of rape, a favourite tactic of
> > the
> > POWA's of this world.
> >
> >
> > --- Mandi Smallhorne <mandiwrite at icon.co.za> wrote:
> >
> > > It exhausts me, too, to read this stuff; but
> > > consider this: the bigoted crap
> > > you refer to is coming from someone who is not
> > only
> > > well educated, but
> > > educated in an area that would include, one would
> > > think, some basic
> > > education in human rights, the constitution, and
> > the
> > > meaning thereof. Yes, I
> > > suspect that he may well be pushing buttons for
> > the
> > > fun of it, but even if
> > > he is, I think it's worth ventilating some of
> > these
> > > things...
> > > I have met enough men whom I like and admire,
> > whose
> > > intellectual capacity
> > > and sensitisation to all sorts of issues is
> > > undeniable, yet who have never
> > > really paid attention to women's rights issues and
> > > utter the same sort of
> > > unthinking, rather patronising messages as we can
> > > remember some
> > > left-of-centre whites doing during apartheid
> > years,
> > > to believe that women's
> > > rights issues are in dire need of explication.
> > Even
> > > on this list.
> > > Mandi
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Charlene Smith" <clsmith at global.co.za>
> > > To: <rangreen at sn.apc.org>; "debate: SA discussion
> > > list "
> > > <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 4:25 PM
> > > Subject: [DEBATE] : Re: Rape & the Men on this
> > List
> > >
> > >
> > > > Yes
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ran Greenstein" <rangreen at sn.apc.org>
> > > > To: <debate at lists.kabissa.org>
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 4:22 PM
> > > > Subject: [DEBATE] : Re: Rape & the Men on this
> > > List
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 21 Apr 2006 at 16:07, Charlene Smith wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > solutions lie within each one of us. At least
> > > Peter is battling with
> > > > > the issues, he takes the risk to expose
> > himself
> > > and his attitudes and
> > > > > through it we get some fascinating and useful
> > > debate. I mourn, that
> > > > > other men lack his courage.
> > > >
> > > > The courage to send bigoted crap message? All
> > you
> > > need is the ability to
> > > > press
> > > > a few buttons. Would anyone here tolerate
> > messages
> > > that claim that the
> > > main
> > > > problem in SA today is that black people make
> > > false accusations about
> > > having
> > > > been oppressed under apartheid? Or that the main
> > > problem with the SA
> > > > economy is that people pretend to be poor so
> > that
> > > they would receive
> > > social
> > > > grants and not have to work?
> > > >
> > > > No doubt there are many people in society at
> > large
> > > who believe just that,
> > > > and
> > > > also many who believe that the victims of gender
> > > violence are men falsely
> > > > accused of rape, and it is important to debate
> > > them, but is it important
> > > to
> > > > do it
> > > > here, on this list?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ran Greenstein
> > > > Johannesburg, South Africa
> > > >
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> > > >
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